A. Bandit - A Secret Has Two Faces Opt

A .B A N D 1 T

M a rin a A b ram o vi6 John B aldessari David Blaine Tony D eL ap D e re k D elG au d io Ricky Jay G lenn Kaino D en ise M arko nish M a x IVIaven Teller

A.BANDIT A SECRET HAS TWO FACES

THE COLLABORATIVE WORK OF GLENN KAINO AND DEREK DELGAUDIO DELMONICO BOOKS-PRESTEL

MUNICH, LONDON, NEW YORK

CONTENTS

ESSAYS

10

I BELIEVE IN YOU. YOUR MAGIC IS REAL.

18

DENISE MARKONISH 14

ORIGINS OF A.BANDIT INTERVIEW BY DENISE MARKONISH

MYSTERY LOVES COMPANY MAX MAVEN

BELIEFS

SITES

LABOR

34

A.BANDIT CONTRACT PACT#2A 20101006

48

SET SALE

36

THE SPACE BETWEEN

54

TORN AND RESTORM

38

A WALK THROUGH CHINA

58

OLD METHODS FOR NEW WARS

66

READY TO BE MADE

84

BILLBOARD

76

THE MISTAKE ROOM

86

GRAND ARTS

80

LIVE

90

UNTITLED (RICKY JAY)

MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE

118 THE NOTHING HAPPENING

94

OF ART 120 RISE OF THE NEW IMAGINISTS 104 TRIALS OF SLYDINI 116 FBD

WITNESS

124 TYRANNY OF VISION

140 ER(DNA)SE, CIRRUS EDITIONS

130 1 84 SECONDS

142 THE GRAND FINALE

136 SAFE

CONTENTS

UTILITY

THE OUT-OF-FOCUS GROUP

146 A.BANDIT DECK OF CARDS

172 NOW YOU SEE IT

150 WANDS BYGONE

174 A-RT ACTIVATOR

162 CARTOGRAPHIES

176 THE LINKING RINGS

170 PATIENCE

178 LOCKS

184 RICKY JAY AND JOHN BALDESSARI

223 TONY DELAP

199 TELLER

233 MARINA ABRAMOVI6

214 DAVID BLAINE

SHOWS

238 SECRETS KEEPING SECRETS

252 ONE OF TWO FACES

248 EXPERIMENTS FROM THE

258 IN & OF ITSELF

SPACE BETWEEN

ESSAYS

10

I BELIEVE IN YOU. YOUR MAGIC IS REAL.

The concept of belief is decidedly different from that of faith. What makes it a richer terrain for art, literature, film, and poetry is that belief inherently contains will and desire. Belief begins with knowledge, start­

DENISE MARKONISH

ing with a kernel of truth and leaving it up to the believer whether or not they wish to forge onward. In epistemological thinking, belief and truth overlap. Faith, on the other hand, is blind and amorphous, with connota­

Suppose you awoke one morning with the uneasy feeling

tions of observance and obligation. Faith gets tangled in religion, while

that the world had, w hile you slept, somehow slipped

belief remains delightfully promiscuous, thus granting it the freedom to

a-tilt and rose to find that your dresser drawers were mys­

be a kind of faith for the faithless. It is in this distinction, between faith

teriously open a fraction of an inch ... that pictures on the

and belief, where magic fits in, particularly secular magie, a genre that

wall, shades on the lamps, and books in the case were

lays no claims to the supernatural.

askew__ What would be your reaction to such a phenom­

In the history of both religion and magic, the fraternal twins of faith

enon? . . . Would you telephone the police? Would you

and belief continually intertwine. The bible itself is full of stories of magic.

pray? Or would you numbly await an explanation, refusing

For example, in Exodus God asks Moses and Aaron to produce a marvel,

to attem pt to analyze the event or even to experience it

telling Moses:

with your full emotions until you had read the papers, tuned in the news, heard how experts from the universities were

uYou shall say to Aaron, Take your rod and cast it down

explaining the t ilt ___Or instead of fear, bewilderment,

before Pharaoh/ It shall turn into a serpent__ ’’ Aaron cast

and anxiety, or in addition to fear, bewilderm ent, and

down his rod in the presence of Pharaoh and his courtiers,

anxiety . . . do you imagine that a bright trace of delight,

and it turned into a serpent. Then Pharaoh, for his part,

unnamable and indefensible, m ight tickle your spine,

sum m oned the wise men and the sorcerers, and the

could you feel in an odd way elated—elated, perhaps,

Egyptian magicians, in turn, did the same with their spells;

because, in a rational world where even disasters are famil­

each cast down his rod, and they turned into serpents. But

iar and damn near routine, something of almost fairytale

Aaron’s rod swallowed their rods.

flavor had occurred? —Tom Robbins, Even Cowgirls Get the Blues (1976)

Other bible stories tell tales of Solomon and Paul burning magical texts believed to be heretical. The sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation

In 1817 poet Samuel Taylor Coleridge coined the term "willing suspen­

further reduces the power of magic, deflating Catholicism ’s belief in

sion of disbelief." Discussing the freedom writers have in constructing

miraculous signs.

narratives that w aiver between the tru th fu l and the fantastic, he

A ce n tu ry after the R eform ation, in An Essay in Human

proposes that "my endeavours should be directed to persons and

Understanding ^690), Enlightenment philosopher John Locke would call

characters supernatural, or at least romantic; yet so as to transfer

for a shift in the thinking around religious faith, proposing that faith in

from our inward nature a human interest and a semblance of truth

God be replaced with belief in God. In his book Modern Enchantments

pension of disbelief for the moment, which constitutes poetic faith .*4 Coleridge, like Tom Robbins, asks us to stop for a moment to consider truth, fantasy, and magic and turn them into poetic faith. This suspension th e n is a c la rio n c a llto le tre a s o n fa llb y th e w a y s id e in fa v o ro fb e lie f. So often skepticism takes hold in the face of belief, causing us to ques­ tion every last thing and asking us to find empirical data to support our assumptions. But the keyword in Coleridge's statement is "willing," which allows us to take a leap and see w hat happens when knowledge becomes

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sufficient to procure for these shadows of imagination that willing sus­

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slippery and falls from our grasp. We need not entirely let go of logic,

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but such willingness permits us to retain knowledge while simultane­

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ously letting it remain fluid. There is so much to be skeptical about in 2016, as we find ourselves in the midst of a presidential election so willing suspension or flights of fantasy in Donald Trump's mind). In the face of such extreme politics, we badly need magic and wonder, for only they have the power to banish skepticism, gifting us with a belief in belief.

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absurd that it seems beyond belief (for example, there appears to be no

(2004), magic historian Simon During elucidates Locke's thesis: Inspectable by conscience rather than reason, faith is not meant to provide rules of conduct but to grant or intimate sa lvation.. . . As soon as faith is central to religious alle­ giance (as it is especially within an individualist sect like Protestantism), then God is separated from fictionality only to the degree that faith is distinct from belief, and lack of faith remote from disbelief that can be voluntarily sus­ pended for the purposes of amusement or instruction. From the Reformation onwards, it is faith as opposed to beliefthat limits a fictionality that threatens to extend heav­ enward. And the growth of fictionality depends upon the pliability and porousness of belief.2

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During goes on to discuss the fidelity of belief, stating that "if someone claims to have a belief, then others cannot appropriately doubt whether this person does in fact have that belief; sentences beginning ‘I believe

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contestable .”3 Here again, the intersection of belief and truth create knowledge that is indisputable to the believer. In less than tw o centuries, history hurtled from the Reformation to Locke's belief over faith before coming to rest in C oleridge^ suspen­

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faith Englishman Reginald Scot, a member of parliament, would write The Discoverie o f Witchcraft

584). This book was remarkable not only

given the era in which it was w ritten but because it was the first book to disprove w itch cra ft, a pra ctice th a t was deemed a nti-religious. But more im portantly to the history of secular magic is the fact that Scot’s book introduced the world to the act of conjuring, to magic for m agick sake. This makes The Discoverie o f Witchcraft the first book to divorce “magic” from religion and a source of evil and to place it within the realm of entertainment. This shift toward the theatricality of magic naturally connects to art, another field enamored w ith illusion and willing suspensions. Fast forward to a more present moment. In their exhibition cata­ logue M agic Show (2010), w rite r Sally O ^ e illy and artist/m agician Jonathan Allen look at contemporary artists who use magic and illusion •

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in their work and walk the fine line between deception and entertain­ (

temporary illusion (from illudare, to play) and permanent deception (from

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ment. Allen speaks about ^our concern over the distinction between

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decipere, to ensnare or trap )."4 By making these distinctions Allen gets at the crux of the suspension of disbelief, for if we are willing to go along

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or duped, instead we can be entertained by the play of illusion. O'Reilly

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picks up on this distinction as well, illuminating the natural connections

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to theatrical magic, where materiality is made mobile, porous, or other­

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wise fluid: to produce, to vanish, to transpose, to transform, to restore, to

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penetrate, to levitate, to suspend, of clairvoyancy, of physical anomaly.... the very nature of substance quivers and its solidity becomes doubtful ."5 This quivering goes backto the fluidity and credulousness of belief over

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faith and the space where we can be released from doctrine, let illusion take hold, and just believe.

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It is of no surprise then that artist (and trained magician) Glenn Kaino and sleight-of-hand artist Derek DelGaudio would find each other

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they describe as "a new medium somewhere between art and magie" to

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create "psycho-spatial interventions ."6 A.Bandit has performed at art

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venues such as The Kitchen in New York and LAXArt in Los Angeles; in resisting boundaries, it has also staged interventions at the 2011 Art

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Los Angeles Contemporary art fair and done demonstrations at Magic-

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over again (see pp. 76-79). Due to the durational and public aspect of

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kerchiefs across theirfaces, w ent from booth to booth ,,stealingMart (see

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ence could witness behind glass the duo performing card tricks overand

human sideofthe magical. A tth e Los Angeles art fairthe duo, with hand­

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art and commerce, belief and entertainment, meet. Throughout their project, A.Bandit consistently asks its audience to w illingly suspend their assumptions about art, magie, performance, and disbelief in favor of creating a space where these constructs can be questioned. A.Bandit allows for Coleridge’s suspensive device of fictionality while, at the same time, it points to the politics of art and deception. By highlighting these dichotomous relationships A.Bandit allows us to exist in a liminal zone, one that calls to mind Donald Rumsfeld’s “known unknowns .’’7 However, as much as A.Bandit desires to reveal the politics of art and illusion, itd o e s n ^a im to banish a sense of wonder. In fact, the mon­ iker is not only a reference to a thieving bandit but is also a sly nod to an optical phenomenon: Alexander's band, a moment in the sky that truly feels like magic. Named after Alexander of Aphrodisias and first described in 200 AD, Alexander's band references the noticeably darker area of sky that exists between the two spectrums of a double rainbow. It is this grey zone, this place where refracted light cannot reach our eyes, which can become a representation of the site of belief. It is in this rare space that Alexander's band mutates, becoming A(s Band and then, finally, A.Bandit. Kaino and DelGaudio reveal the dark zone in the sky, a place where we can assuredly believe in art and magic; tw in perfor­ mance spectacles that call for suspending belief and give us permission to push against politics, to live in a world a-tilt, all the while basking in the double rainbow. Perhaps it is best to end with lyrics by the Los Angeles-based band Yacht, for they poetically essentialize A.Bandit's mission: "Your magic's real so why aren't you using it / you could have the world for yourself / you don’t ever have to worry about losing it / the magic inside of you is infinite .”8 A.Bandit reassures us, harnessing belief in belief and allowing us to bask in infinite magic inside us all. I believe in them. Their magic is real.

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Con. This new medium created by Kaino and DelGaudio translates into works like The Mistake Room (2011)at LAXArt Annex, forw hich the audi­

this performance, mistakes were inevitably made, thus revealing the

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pp. 94-103). In the end, they loaded everything into a shipping crate and made the contents seemingly vanish, a sly critique of the place where

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in Los Angeles. In 2010 they formed A.Bandit, a performance art project

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n g in 2002, Defense Secretary Do n a l d Rumsfeld stated:

between art and magic: "art seems more aligned with the verbs attributed

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for the ride and believe the magician, we will not feel ensnared, trapped,

the history of our country a n d other free countries, it is the latter category that tend to be the diBcult onesa ^рт ^. 0 ^. 3 0 ^ ^ ^ ^

sion of disbelief. In the middle of this period of questioning and redefining

7 W h e n asked about links between Iraq, terroHsm, a n d w s p o n s of m a s s destruction at a U S D e p a r t m e n t of D e f e s e brie

that’ are incontestable even though the beliefs themselves are always

sneljorts that say that somethin hasn-t hap>j>ened are always interestin to me, because as w e know, there are k n o w n Imowns; there ai*e things w e k n o w w e know. W e also k n o w there are k n o w n u n k n o w n s ; that is to say w e k n o w there are s o m e things w e do not k n o w . ut there are also u n k n o w n u n k n o w n s 丨 the o n s w e don-t k n o w w e don*t know. A n d if

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MYSTERY LOVES COMPANY MAX MAVEN

But that separation took a long time. Not every culture has kept to the same pace, but in the western world, m agick transition into sec­ ular performance began over two thousand years ago. Long after, there still existed a connecting tissue between those three things. And that connecting tissue was mystery. In the bygone era, mystery was one of the comm odities offered by scientists, artists, a/?d theologians. But as

You are probably lucky enough to have never frequented the magicians'

societies have progressed (or at least moved in a different direction),

chat groups that are scattered across the internet. Hence, you have

those roles have changed.

avoided certain topics that crop up repeatedly and are never quite

In a speech delivered in NewYorkin 1954, the American physicist

resolved. One such discussion: Is magic art? Oh, how magicians love to

Robert Oppenheimer said, "Both the man of science and the man of art

argue about that topic. (Normal people don't argue about it, not because

live always at the edge of mystery." But most scientists— and most art­

they сапЧ, but because they don't care.) It is, in fact, a dispute that pre­

ists— have lost this concept. As for modern religions, they have become

dates cyberspace. As the British conjuring theoretician S. H. Sharpe

rigid dispensaries of answers with very little room for questions. Most of

wrote back in 1932, "The subject is one of constant controversy, but

what is provided from those sources is didactic and/or instructional.

neither the ‘ayes’ nor that ‘nays’ appear to make much progress .’1

Mystery is defined as something that threatens authority; as such, it must

Well, I have a response that works for me, and this seems to be an appropriate place to record it. Asking if magic is art is like asking if the sky is blue. Most of the

be conquered or bypassed, not welcomed. It's up to magicians to maintain that welcome. But sadly, in recent times the word mystery in the English language has also become cor-

time it is, but only if you look at it. Of course, most people don't bother to

rupted, distorted. I wish we had a better word to play off of. Maybe

look, and they are steered away from looking by magic's own practi­

something in between the Japanese , ^ / 7/57’ (“ mystery” or “secret”） and

tioners, most of whom havenft thought to look either. This is sad but

the Spanish amende (“charm” or “magic”). An approach to mystery along

hardly surprising: Sturgeon’s Law is virtually universal.

the lines of what the German w riter Johann Wolfgang Goethe said in

Partlyas a result of this steered misperception (which might tidily

trying to describe the Italian violinist Niccolo Paganini, some two hun­

be referred to as misdirection, but that's a joke for a different essay), in

dred years ago: "A mysterious power, which everyone senses and no

recent times the very word m agichas become corrupted. For many con­

philosopher explains." ГИ jum p to the punchline: There is really only one

temporary people, the word immediately brings to mind "something nice

difference between magic and any other form of artistic expression, and

for the children.” But I’m here to say that magic is not for children; in fact,

that is the significance of mystery relative to its other components.

quite often it is not nice. To repeat my prior accusation, the audience— —

Consider painting. You can make a list of the elements that go into

presumably, th a t’s you— has been led to such puerile associations by

a painter’s work: color, texture, space ， stroke, size, etc. Somewhere on

the performers themselves. The magicians of the tw entieth century

that list is mystery. In most cases, it is not near the top of the list, nor is

were able to accomplish something quite extraordinary: In the space of

its presence mandatory, but it's there as an option. Or in music, the list

less than one hundred years, they managed to take something that is

includes rhythm, harmony, discord, melisma, timbre, silence, and so

inherently profound and render it trivial.

on. And again, somewhere on the list is mystery, which may or may not

Throughout human history, in virtually every culture and in every

be employed.

part of the world, as societies develop, a specific position w ithin the

In the creation of magic, all of those same elements are available.

comm unity inevitably evolves into being. This role requires someone

A magician may make use of color, rhythm, silence, space, and every­

who guides and represents the com m unity in th eir life explorations,

thing else. But at the very top of the m agician^ list is mystery. It is

which fall into three general categories: natural, aesthetic, and meta­

indispensable. Myself, I think that mystery is indispensable to a life worth

physical. Anthropologists call that person a shaman. The word likely has

living. That said, we who are stranded in the twenty-first century are con­

proto-Indo-European roots, evolving through ancient Chinese and

fined to a world that has largely lost the ability to perceive mystery. Our

Sanskrit, passing through theTungusic languages of what is nowSiberia,

technologies advance with fierce rapidity, and our species assimilates

through Russian and German. Today it is a fairly universal term, for a fairly

those changes almost as fast.

universal thing. And those areas of life exploration coexisted, quite com­ fortably, under the guidance and leadership of the shaman. But over tim e that singular concept split into three things. The exploration of the natural world became science and technology. The

The Argentine poet Jorge Luis Borges noted that “there is nothing in the world that is not mysterious, but the mystery is more evident in certain things than in others.” As the available examples of evidence dwindle, society increasingly needs magic.

exploration of the aesthetic world became refined craft and art. The

Which is why it is fortunate that A.Bandit is a conjuring collective.

exploration of the metaphysical world became religion and philosophy.

It is not because Kaino’s pieces traffic in illusion, or DelGaudio’s shows

One unified thing became three, and eventually those three became less

contain overt displays of legerdemain, but because their transactions

obviously connected, more often than not conceived as independent of

are so largely governed by mystery. The nature of their work is such that

one another.

we are, at all tim es, aware of these ongoing transactions. M arcel

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Duchamp stated that "the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act.” (Do you suppose that A.Bandit is a distant cousin to R. Mutt?) Try to imagine the output of A.Bandit w ithout mystery. I can*t. Maybe Г т simply not inventive enough. But I think it's because its work is inseparable from mystery. The American painter Edward Hopper said, “ If I could say it in words there would be no reason to paint.” Yep. And if A. Bandit could express it w ithout mystery, w e ll... you can surely finish that sentence yourself. The literature of conjuring is surprisingly vast. And while much of that is devoted to technical information (you’d be amazed at how many ways there are to produce the four kings from a shuffled pack), there is a valid body of work devoted to the theories that lie beneath the methods. Thus we find the English illusionist John Nevil Maskelyne writing in 1911, "As in painting so also in magic .'1And, moreover, "If matters of pure tech­ nique— mere handicraft—were all we have to discuss, the phrase 'Art in Magie' would represent a solecism of the first water.'1So there. ГИ conclude by observing that anti-bad is an anagram oiA.Bandit. Therefore, A.Bandit is good. What more do you need to know?

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i s o oS 3 A 0 1 A H H I S M

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ORIGINS OF A.BANDIT

DM:

Denise Markonish

GK:

Glenn Kaino

DD:

Derek DelGaudio

Interview by Denise Markonish, Glenn Kaino studio, Boyle Heights, California, January 6,2017

DM:

Let’s start at the beginning. Can you each tell me your earliest memories

of both art and magic? Was there something that hooked you? GK:

For several years I would do a magic trick for curators when they came to my studio.

It became sort of a litmus test: if the curator enjoyed it (performance quality notwithstand­ ing), we would have a fun exchange about the vitality and power of art, and if the curator began to explain the trick to me or tell me what I was doing, while I was doing it, well, those visits usually were more textbook and academic. DD:

I grew up in Colorado, which is not exactly a major hub for contemporary art. I was

interested in philosophy and politics and became infatuated with didactic comedians like George Carlin and Bill Hicks. The films and music I enjoyed were made by people I consider artists. But my knowledge of art in general was limited to what I learned during school field trips and movies nominated for Oscars. I didn't see how art related to me or what I do. Then I met Glenn. I had a deep respect and appreciation for him and his work, but still had little to no interest in the contemporary art world at large. In fact, as someone who spent every day of his life in countless hours practicing a craft, the more I learned about art, the more infuriating it became. “You can just find a thing and call it art?” “Some artists don’t make their own work? What the fuck?!" I knew there was value in it, but couldn't see how it related to my work. Then I saw Chris Burden's Samson [1985], an installation consisting of a one-hundred-ton jack connected to a gearbox and a turnstile. The jack pushes two large timbers against the load-bearing walls of the museum. Each time a visitor passes through the turnstile to see the piece, the jack expands ever so slightly. Theoretically, if enough people visit the exhibition, Samson would destroy the building. That struck a chord with me. The fact that it was both metaphoric and literal blew my mind. It challenged viewers, forcing them to question the legitimacy of the work itself and consider the integrity of their belief in it. It was everything I want my work to be. DM:

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GK:

How did you tw o meet, and what was that first encounter like?

In 2008 the art world was a mess. After Art Basel Miami, the first art fair I actually

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my form er gallerist, I said I needed something new and that I was going to press pause. He asked what I wanted to do and 丨blurted out: “ I’m going to hang out with a bunch of magi-

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cians!MHe asked me why, and I responded that I thought they might know something about

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believing in what they do, and that the notion of trading in secrets and learning about

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secrecy was important. When I got back to LA, I shut down the production components of

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my studio and traveled the country for months meeting and studying with some of the best

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magicians in the world.

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attended, I decided to suspend my practice and recalibrate. On the plane ride home with

At some point in every meeting the magician would tell me, MYou need to meet Derek DelGaudio ."丨 Googled him and found nothing, no entries describing who he was or

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about his work. Actually, there was one listing, a private message board for magicians with

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a post titled “Who is Derek DelGaudio?” I thought that was great! So we coordinated a meeting at the Hollywood Roosevelt, and that first conversation lasted for hours.

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DD:

At that time, I was really struggling with my own practice and having trouble iden­

tifying as a magician. I was trying to use magic to make statements and communicate ideas. Unfortunately, magic is not viewed for its meaning value. There are no academic institu­ tions for magic, or critical classes. Which means that, regardless of intention or meaningful

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with what magie can do, as opposed to being a magician. After that, I had to figure out new

service entertainment. The work I was doing had no place in that world.

ways of looking at my relationship with magic. The irony is, I am more proud of being a

I met Glenn at the height of this artistic crisis. He told me, "\ want to believe in art again the way a great magician believes in magic." I told him, "Well, IVe got bad news for

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gesture, your work as a magician will be dismissed as nothing more than a cheap form of

magician today than I was before Glenn said that to me. Now I understand what being a magician mea 门s to me.

you___" I'd never met a magician who believed in magic w ith the level of conviction, or relevance, or purpose, that Glenn was talking about. Traditionally, for magicians, ^believing

DM:

in magic" is a theatrical device. But actually believing that magic is an essential and neces­ sary part of humanity__ I didn4 know jf it was possible, but I wanted to find out. The next

one another and trusted one another’s conceptual positioning, but true personal trust is something entirely different, and something that is frankly really difficult

day, I left the magic world behind and dove headfirst into art.

for most collaborators. Was there a moment when you realized you trusted each

But that moment can only come with trust. It is clear that you both admired

other in this deeper way, no questions asked? DM:

So from that meeting of the minds, how did you birth A.Bandit? It seems

like right from the start you knew there would be a kinship and desire to collabo­ rate, and also a sense that you needed to create something new, something

GK: It’s tricky, because magicians mostly work alone; it’s like a weird, loose cabal of people who unwillingly trade secrets. The same is often true of artists. As you said, collab­

between art and magic. What was the conversation like around that?

oration not built on trust is doomed to fail, and IVe been part of artists' collectives that have

I think we imm ediately sensed from that meeting that we had a trem endous

became apparent. About a year into working together, Derek and I were organizing an

unraveled because of these issues. But I can pinpoint a specific moment when this trust GK:

amount of alignm ent in mission and ideology, and also a wealth of information that we

evening performance at the Magic Castle in LA (see pp. 34-35). This was the first thing

instinctively knew we could share. But the real story of those first few weeks was the trust

we did together publicly, and we were negotiating the fact that I was exploring magic from

we developed with each other and the tone we set in our relationship with really clear com­

the side of the art world and Derek was coming in from a public-interface perspective.

munication. From the jump, we both said to each other that if this was going to be a lasting

The show involved a sit-down w ith some friends from both the art and magic

collaboration, we would need to start with trust and a system to smooth out the moments

worlds. We talked about art and magic, and Derek did a small performance. Jeffrey Deitch,

when we might not be fully in sync. For example, when we started working together, I had

who was the director of LA MOCA [Museum of Contemporary Art] at the time, was there. I

a more public presence than Derek, and not just on Google. I had an art practice of almost

had just met Jeffrey through China Chow. And here's the thing: no one from MOCA has ever

ten years that included some high-profile shows, and Derek, atthattim e, wasa behind-the-

come to my studio, and I have worked in LA my whole career. So after Derek and I finished

scenes magician's magician. We had a few long nights and came to the conclusion that if

the performance， I said to him: “Trust me, this is only asymmetrical for a nanosecond.”

we did our jobs right, overtim e that public-facing level of awareness would totally shift, and he would be the high-profile magician and I would be the behind-the-scenes conceptual

DD:

artist. So with that we created A.Bandit—a dual persona that we could growfrom the ground

be viewed by the art world. I remember saying, *Tm going to invest all this tim e into this

YouYe forgetting the part before the show when I was skeptical about how I would

up that took the best of both of our practices and turned it into its own thing.

project, and it’s good for Glenn because it’s art-world stuff. But there’s no place for me in

DD:

that world and there’s no money in it, so why?” Glenn had responded， “ Fuck that, we just need to do it.”

At first, we both approached our work together as a mutually beneficial cultural

exchange. The respect for our individual work allowed us to trust each other, blindly. Glenn knew he could trust me when it came to magic, and I knew I could trust Glenn when it came

I understand that now, but at the tim e we hadn’t known each other very long. I had no idea who Jeffery Deitch was, so I said to Glenn, "Look, dude. Г т going to commit to really

to art. But then something unexpected happened: we both caught a glimpse of a magical

giving us a chance and giving it my all. But I know you're smart enough to fuck me over and

place that only exists on a map when we are in the same room. We knew we wanted to reach

waste my tim e because 丨 don’t have the opportunities in this world. So I'm begging you,

this place and that the only way to get there was together. We needed to start by figuring

please don’t fuck me. Please, if you’re going to do that just tell me now.” Glenn responded ，

out how to make the journey w ithout compromising our own practices, our own individual­

“Absolutely, of course, I’m in it. Let’s do this together." And then we did the performance.

ities. I respected Glenn's work as an artist, and Glenn was sensitive to the fact that I was struggling with my own practice as a magician. Luckily, we both valued ideas more than

GK:

And do you remember what my response was afterward?

DD:

Absolutely! One thing I did at the end of the night was made China get out of

circumstances, and A.Bandit became our collective identity. GK:

I like to say I recognized that Derek was an artist trapped in a magician's history.

That started a long tim e before I met him. I don't know if anyone saw that in him, or, if they did, they didn't have the tools to nourish it. I think many of his friends instinctively knew he

Then, as we walked out of the room Jeffrey said to me, "Here's my business card,

v Л0 S N S I H O

was an artist, which is why they told me to meet him.

if you ever want a tour of MOCA, Г т happy to show you. I'd love to hang out."

DD:

were saying earlier? You’re talented enough to fuck me so w e’re even.” And that became the basis of our relationship.

I looked at Glenn, and he looked at me and just said, "Remember that thing you I’ll never forget the night Glenn said those words to me: “You’re not a magician.

You're an artist trapped in a magician's history .11 Brutal. Hearing that was so conflicting for me, not because I didnft know if he was right, but because I knew that he was. It had nothing to do with rather being an artist than a magician. It has everything to do with what I value. I have always valued the metaphoric and conceptual aspects of magic. I fell in love

DM:

That is amazing, and certainly levels the playing field!

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her seat and start weeping. It was like she saw a ghost, but really, something magic had happened.

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DD: And that mutual respect is important, but so is undersanding that we want more, that the power of magic in the moment isn’t enough, because we want to create something

DM:

But I also like that craft is something finely honed, and if you think of practice

with lasting value.

sense it becomes the definition of the job, but I like that both terms have that fluidity

in the traditional sense, it's something that youYe learning. In the professional to them. Add to that the way in which you two cross genres and start using them

GK:

as a point of commonality, it opens up these definitions to even more iteration.

Exactly. We w ill nurture this thing and our relationship and each other with that

level of trust, respect, and love. W hafs interesting here is that magie, like trust or respect, are unnamable. That is the very core of A.Bandit. The name even comes from this place. Remember that "Double

GK:

Yes, ifs important to us that the layers of meaning are always present, not hidden

or veiled.

Rainbow Guy” video on YouTube， where the guy sees a double rainbow and is struck by such a sense of wonder and beauty he begins to weep, saying, *4Whoa! Double rainbow!

DD:

I also think that something we have in common is a long-term view of things. We

What does it mean?" Derek and I saw this and lamented that neither of us had seen any­

try to attack what's in front of us, but simultaneously, weYe thinking about how the work

thing in nature, or anywhere for that matter, that evoked that type of profound emotional

will feel when we look back at it. One hundred years from now, what do you want your proj­

response. So we chose the name A.Bandit， which is short for Alexander’s band—the area

ect, your life project, your contribution to look like? Your practice is how you can achieve

of darkness between the two spectrums of a double rainbow.

that. So, weVe had similar goals in terms of longevity.

But really the name is a proxy, a fake name to name the unnamable. It’s a way of having the world call us something that we don't want to be called ourselves, as opposed

DM:

to having the world define us.

things the right way takes time. A lot of people get restless, thinking, 4,l want to do

To that point, I have noticed you both have an understanding that doing

this in six m onths/’ but the other side to that is saying, “ I want to do this and ifs Ifs a way of protecting each other from a world trying to pin us down. Thafs why

going to take four years， so I’m going to give myself the tim e needed." That doesn’t

ifs not just lip service when I tell people that my favorite magician is Glenn Kaino. Because

mean you canft be nimble; instead, you can have both the short and long term in

the traditional magic world doesn4 know Glenn, they wonder how we are defining magic.

sight, which allows for permission to work fast and slow.

DD:

This immediately complicates things, which is always good. DD: DM:

So all of this led to that trust you now have as collaborators, but I think

Exactly. Ifs important that we have the ability to work very quickly on a given proj­

ect, while also maintaining that duality of working to get to the long game.

there is more to it than that. Can you talk about what you each brought to the table DM:

both in concept and expertise? I find it interesting that both of you use the terms

Do you think that fluidity comes from the fact that, Derek, you come from

“ practice” and “craft” interchangeably to speak about about art and magie. It’s

a performative background, whereas Glenn, you come from a studio practice,

almost like a shared terminology. "Practice," as a verb, is what you do to get better at something. "Practice,"

which is inherently longer term?

as a noun, is the thing you do: a profession. You have to practice to have a practice.

GK:

Craft is somewhat synonymous with a practice. For something to be well crafted,

studio practice, the making of work exists one way, whereas when I do a studio visit, it is

Again, this brings us back to the duality of things. A.Bandit magnifies this. In my

it is finely honed or practiced. “Craft” is often a dirty word in the art world, but it’s

very much a performance. Add to that the fact that Derek's performances operate in real time at performance

something that you are both great practitioners of. Was that something you recognized in each other, because while it's clear

speed but his thinking behind the work operates at studio-practice speed. So all of this

you are having fun together, it’s even more evident that this sense of play comes

becomes imbedded in the work we do together. It's funny. Every time a curator comes to

out of a mutual respect for a seriousness of approach.

my studio I am performing, and every tim e Derek leaves the stage and goes home, he is actually at the studio.

GK:

It's really interesting that you bring up how we use those words with a common

understanding of what they mean. In fact, it happens a lot in our work that we take an idea

DM:

or term that is often very narrowly defined within the fields of study of each individual system

the performance be what it will be, let it be more conceptual or vulnerable, even.

In some ways that means you both have to let your guard down and let

of production and we come to find a commonality. For instance, craft in the art world signifies a lower-value trade, sans intellectual

Well, that is really one of the things that opened up my own work, my practice as

component. Craft art as differentiated from conceptual art. Then there's having craft and

a performer, as a magician, was the idea of not putting all of the weight on the performance.

figuring things out. But what I'm excited about hearing and thinking about for the first time

And that means you need to have a different pillar supporting the work. If ifs not in the

is that in this space that we play in, we've come to these common definitions.

performance or technique, then what is it?

You are the first "outsider" that has noticed that we have this ability to speak cross­

That is why focusing on the conceptual aspects became really important to me,

tongue. I don't ever question what it means when Derek uses these words, and Г т sure that

which is something Glenn and I share. But ifs tricky because performing magic usually has

he doesn't question what I mean. What we have done is taken this commonality and created

no meaning, and performance art—well, I w on't speak for Glenn here— but ГИ come out

a new set of value systems that correlate to the hybrid we have created.

and say it, objectively … performance art sucks. As performance, it's fucking terrible.

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DD:

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DM:

丨totally agree. It’s so hyperaware of itself that it fails in the wake of

DM:

DD：

It doesn’t have to suck， and it doesn’t have to make itself so inaccessible. What I

Do you think there’s a similar criticism that could be said of the magic

world?

navel-gazing. DD:

Actually, it's the exact opposite. In magic there is no meaning value whatsoever.

have noticed is that if ifs not interesting in the moment, then you have to have an inherent DM:

understanding of why i f s important or valuable. As opposed to it being immediately capti­

So it’s just pure performance?

vating or amazing or fascinating or humorous or fun, and then allowing that to be a point of intrigue leading to a bigger idea. In the first instance you have to have inside knowledge,

DD:

whereas in the second you gain knowledge, which is more satisfying.

trum. You feel wonderful in the moment and think, noh, that was amazing!" and then you

I watched Glenn, even before I met him, fighting against performance art. He

Spectacle, pure performances, absolutely. Ifs literally the opposite end of the spec­

walk away and say, “ Let’s go get a hot dog.”

knows the work is important and has respect for it, but I could also tell that he didn’t want

With magic shows, you stop thinking about it the second you leave, or you shift to

to engage in traditional performance. IVe watched him improve as a performer, as an actual

thinking, “ I wonder how he did that?” And that is not the question you want them leaving

performer who could stand on stage and perform as opposed to just doing the gesture.

with. So ifs totally accessible but completely devoid of meaning.

GK:

DM:

And that's funny because it's a mechanical thing, but it also points to the fact that

The way you talk about this reminds me of the difference between curi­

performance art sucks because the apparatus of it sucking is about the contradiction of

osity and wonder: curiosity is centered around fact-finding, whereas wonder is

accessibility, which goes right back to the conversation about craft.

more ineffable, it's about being comfortable in the unknown. The two are related,

To that extent, where performance art so often fails is that it leans so heavily on

but ifs almost like a Venn diagram where the overlapping realm between wonder

conceptual value but doesn't take into consideration that you are in front of people, doing

and curiosity is humanity, or magic even. That seems to me essential to what

something. Having a great idea doesn4 mean it w ill make a great performance. You can

A.Bandit is about.

dissect it all you want, and the conceptual backing may be solid, but If the actual lived experience betrays the idea, then you are in trouble. Whereas, sometimes in an object, if you ruminate and look at it long enough— — say,

GK:

Exactly! In fact, weVe always thought about that diagram as an inversion.

Traditionally, you only look at the Venn diagram as a frontal, flat plane. But what about look­

Marcel Duchamp’s urinal_ you go, wow, okay, I never considered that my looking at a urinal

ing at it from the inside? From that point you can laugh at everyone who's on the outside.

would be so profound and grow more so over time. But the lived experience of watching a

We’re doing that.

bad performance is horrible， and you just don’t recover. DM: DM:

The other thing that frustrates me about performance art is that it is for

It makes you consider the emotive, the “why” of how things resonate. You

can intellectualize it or you can just be entertained, but if you have both, well then, it’s something else altogether.

a very narrow, privileged audience and therefore doesn4 reach the level of human­ ity A.Bandit tries to achieve. DD:

DD:

We are always asking ourselves, “What is that thing that makes it resonate?”

GK:

And that willingness to not know is certainly part of it. But what I do know is that

That humanity, that is the biggest part, the key for us. DM:

I think that is why what you do is so hard to describe, because humanity

we're tapping into the potential of those boundaries being broken. The funny thing is that,

is ineffable. I remember when I sa\N In & Of Itself at the Geffen Playhouse in LA, I

and I think Derek will agree, when we work together in the studio it's as awesome as when

tried to explain to a 什iend what it was. I said, "It wasn’t really theater, it wasn’t really

we perform. In some ways, working together without an audience is a kind of performance. We

magic; it was art, it was a performance, but it wasn't performance art.,f

sit in a room, and whether it's for any of the projects in this book, or the performances, or DD:

Ha ha, it lives up to the title! But that also points to my criticism of performance art

and the realization that I was being deprived of something greater because of how uninter­

the exhibitions, we'll start off slowly, warming up to the engagement of that moment. And then we literally start performing a whole amplification of ideas together in that moment.

esting performance art was. And it's infuriating because there are wonderful ideas in

And it really is an amplification. For instance, Derek will say something and then

performance art, and I had to read a lot and talk to a lot of smart people to start to understand

ГИ say something, and soon enough we are volleying back and forth and it will get to the

what these ideas were, or could be. Г т a curious person, so I dug deeper. But not everyone will do that, so this inac­

point where w e’re both contributing. Then we look back and realize, “Oh, that’s awesome,” or “That feels right.”

is something that can really affect and live inside of you, an experience where you walk away

DM:

awed and evaluate it intellectually afterward. In this equation experience is first, which leads

go next? How do those ideas evolve into things?

Ifs a rare kind of exchange, but from that point ofvolleying, where do you

to an intellectual understanding that is deeper because the experience is so visceral. Otherwise, it's just empty intellect.

GK:

I think there are tw o ways weVe thought about it. The first involves a responsive

process, or responsive to an opportunity or engagement. The second is generative, which is the work we continue to do irrespective of opportunities.

H S I N C m v i 3 a

cessibility deprives some people from finding expansive meaning. Instead, what I strive for

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One of the responsive ideas came when we were asked to make a deck of cards.

GK:

It goes both ways, for certain. I recall a story about when the Warner brothers got

Derek and I sat down in front of a computer and in six hours came up with an amazing deck

started. Apparently they never fought and got everything done because they stood by one

of cards that is now a collectible item and is more elaborate than 99 percent of custom-art

another's certainty. Similarly, when working with us on In & Of Itself, Frank [Oz] said that

or magic decks on the market. We started by considering the o pportunity... what it means for us to design a deck. We deconstructed the thing, understanding its nuances 一from the

watching us was like seeing the chemistry he felt with Jim Henson when they were working on The Muppets. Not a bad comparison at all!

cards to the labels and case. We then applied both of our expertises on top of that concep­ tually generative process and came out with something truly unique.

DD:

DD:

we know we’re breaking something.

He also pointed out that it's as much about anarchy as it is creative synergy. He

said, “you guys are anarchists,” and that’s what he was drawn to_ We get most excited when We considered every angle: What does it mean to open a deck? What are you doing

in that process? What is under that label? This allows us to find the opportunities. And we both level with each other and figure out what w e’ve missed, allowing us to unearth the secrets of the project—not a magic secret, but a metaphoric one. These are

GK:

the kinds of insider-joke moments we love, and ifs even more satisfying when someone

magic, and performance, it's often better to attack a problem together. There's a friendly

else digs deep and finds it. That journey, that exploration forthe viewer, is part of the excite­

goading as each of us works hard to figure out who is going to be right each time!

For Derek and I, the trust is so strong that whoever has an opinion is always going

be right because otherwise we wouldn't have an opinion. Even with our educations in art,

ment. There is more behind the next door, and we are both constantly fighting to find that next door and give someone else the key to unlock it.

DM:

And sometimes you don't know why a thing isn't right or why you have

your opinion. It is only through tru st， both in yourself and the other person you’re DM:

It is satisfying to reward the person who is in it as much as you are. You

w orking with, that you don't have to explain why something does or doesn't

know that 90 percent of the population is going to miss that little moment, the

feel right.

easter egg. But for the 10 percent who get it ， it’s a rush. DD: DD:

It really is about belief: belief systems and people's belief in things. And we con­

Exactly. Then a few years ago, on the foundation of this blind trust, we had that

magical moment when we realized we started to be right in each other's field.

sistently strive to challenge these belief systems in an effort to provide the opportunity to believe in something more. DM:

I'm glad you bring up belief here. When you first asked me to be involved

GK:

Oh, totally. Ha ha, that was awesome!

DD:

Glenn would bring up something that had to do with concealment, secrecy, or

with this book, I knew I wanted to write about believing and belief. You don't have

performance nuance, and I might bring up something that had to do with aesthetics or the

to believe in God, or magic, or art, but if you believe in belief then your eyes are

meaning value, and we were both right.

wide open. If your eyes are wide open then you are willing to take a leap of faith, to find the hidden clues. And while A.Bandit uses the languages of art and magic,

DM:

That’s amazing.

what you are really doing is asking people, or giving them permission, to believe in belief.

DD:

People are rarely offered an opportunity to unapologetically believe in a magical

tions stronger about whatever I thought about both art and magic and collaboration. But at

world. There are so many stigmas attached to “ belief,” I think when people are given a safe

the same time, I spent my life learning about con artists and hustlers, so half or more of the

space in which to believe, to take the leap, they’ll gladly take it. I’m not sure we encourage

art w o rld ...

And it’s jarring. But, at the end of the day, this collaboration has only made my beliefs and convic­

DD:

people to take a leap so much as weVe provided them the opportunity to do it. We never offer a ledge we aren't willing to leap off ourselves.

DM:

Definitely more than half.

There’s also a practical element of the process, which is blind trust. I don’t know if it's true the other way, but any tim e Glenn says something is not right, there's not a single

GK:

doubt in my head that he’s right.

Only the ones you hear about. But that strengthening of one's own convictions, that's why we do what we do, to

create an active platform that can address art, magie, or even politics. GK:

Oh, it’s both ways.

On their surface— and this is an exaggerated stereotype— both artists and magi­ cians are part of shitty service entertainment for hire, or are the definition of the out-of-touch fake intellectual who leads culture. If you ask yourself “where do you net out,” then 丨 think

that point of understanding but I know Glenn is right because that is why he's h ere... to be

that thafs where we can maximize the potential of both. This frees us to leave out everything

right when I'm wrong.

about what doesn’t work.

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DM:

And vice versa.

DD:

There’s also the negativity of the service industry not being a bad thing, it’s just a

truth that needs to be recognized. I think the problematics of this are ignored.

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I then evaluate why he’s right so I can see it for myself. I may fight like hell to get to

DD:

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DM:

DD:

It s all about how you handle it. For instance, as a curator ， I’m in the art

GK:

Yes, that was the idea. It sort of backfired, though. For instance, one of the first people I thought of was Tony DeLap, the California

w orld， like it or not. So with everything I do, I like to say “fuck you” to the art world. It's that poking, prodding, and pushing that is essential, for it allows us to be in

abstract expressionist who trained everyone from Chris Burden to James Turrell. In 1971

the world and to look at it critically. It’s that inverted Venn diagram again. It，s informed anarchy.

he did a performance where he levitated a woman at a gallery. I mentioned this to Derek and he said ， “ Funny， there’s a guy named Tony DeLap who did the Dai Vernon interviews.”

Exactly, and I would add that what is important is that both art and magic, even if

DD:

Vernon was a very famous and well-regarded magician, and these are the key texts

we throw out the discriminatory aspects of our usage of those terms, rely on presence. That

about him. So I knew Tony as a guy who interviewed a magician and Glenn knew him as a

is a given, and then we can subvert it from there.

conceptual artist with an interest in magic!

For instance, you can't fully comprehend magic on YouTube or in a book, and you DM:

can’t look at art in a book. Sure, technically you can, but you’re not engaging with art if you just see it in books; it makes looking at Guernica like looking at Saving Private fucking Ryan.

I love that. It perfectly illustrates your whole relationship.

The same goes for the performed thing: it's impossible to really see what is happening if

GK:

it’s not live.

lineage of what we were doing. When we started talking, though, he admitted, HOh, yeah,

I think we acknowledge the potential effect this has on both art and magic, and we

So we approached Tony with the hope that he would be a key figure in tracing the

I’m a hobbyist.” Magic was just a device he used, and that was that.

also recognize that this reinforcement of presence was not being realized. When art is sold on Instagram and magic is traded on YouTube, you’re like, “Wow， this is not human.”

DD:

The difference is, he was talking about tricks, not magic. But the work we do with A.Bandit demands the other side be up to par with each

DM:

What does it mean then to put this all into a book?

other’s expectations, and then those expectations become shared. So, I’m not going do a magic thing with Glenn that sucks and he’s not going do an art thing with me that sucks.

DD:

Well, the book is meant to be a performance. DM: DM:

Of course it is! DD:

DD:

Exactly. Why would you actively ruin your own reputations?

Everything about this book from the design to the dialogues within it is in service

So Tony doesn^ mind using, literally using, a trick to do an art piece, but he is not

performing magic.

of making it an experience, something active. GK:

Absolutely. We know that not everyone is going be able to see us work live, so it's

important that the book be just another performance. It's not documentation per se, rather

GK: This is not to say that if a magic space between Tony DeLap's studio and Dai Vernon’s practice had been created, that they could not have done something special. But the relationship wasn't there for them to be generative together.

ifs specifically crafted to be performed in the book. It was also an opportunity to have a DM:

public dialogue about art and magic.

Again, it’s about a leap of faith and trust. Most people aren’t willing to

be vulnerable. A lot of artists— and I can’t speak to magicians but suspect it’s When we first met, Glenn, you told me about this project. I tried to look

similar— are so insular. They think， “I have to keep everything close to my chest.”

it up online, and found very little information. I quickly realized that this was

And if you are merely worried about protection, then you put yourself in a box and

intentional.

you can’t jump.

DM:

Looking through the galleys of the book, you pointed out how the images are cropped so that youYe not giving it all away or just presenting the past as doc­

DD:

That is why these conversations were so disappointing, whether it was the one

umentation. Instead, your reader has to perform the book, to have an experience.

with Tony or the one between John Baldessari and Ricky Jay. None of these people were

The other thing that is happening here is that weYe learning as we go and essen­

fascinating in and of itself, and a perfect counterpoint to what Glenn and I are doing.

willing to believe, so instead it became about the unwillingness to discuss belief, which is GK:

tially creating a new discipline. If I were to talk about our work from the art-world side, I'd say we Ye learning to craft a spectacle, weYe learning to craft in real-time performance that

DM:

is both amazingly substantial and also nuanced.

Jay dialogue convening, and you were both a little shell-shocked.

I rememberthe last time I sawyou both it was minutes afterthe Baldessari/

And from the magic world you could say (and people do say this), aWow, those performance/' For us, being able to talk about one work from both of these directions is the

about Ricky Jay and I read interviews w ith him and articles about him, and I chased him.

CQ

most exciting moment.

Eventually I realized that I was chasing an imaginary person, a dream of someone that

I've spent so much of my life chasing ghosts, chasing ideas of people. I'd heard

doesn’t really exist.

&H O S N o I H O

DM:

Was that the impetus for the conversations in this book? Did you see it

as a way to bring together the people who you thought were stepping over the

DM:

It’s hard to realize that you have to kill your idols. Because you’re not

art/magic line?

chasing the real thing anyway, so you have to get rid of the ghosts.

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performances are more artistic and have more depth and meaning than any other magic

30

GK:

31

Chasing Ghosts is a good title for that interview se ction ... though right now we

are calling it “ 〇ut-of-Focus Group.” DM:

Ha, that is great, too! Let's leave the blurry ghosts behind and end back with belief and how

uncomfortable people are with the unnamable. I find the duality in your work fas­ cinating (and maybe these conversation subjects were a bit threatened by that fluidity). Magic is a named thing, so is art, but by combining them, you create a hybrid that is unnameable, that must be believed. Ifs unnameable because you have left ineffability intact and opened a space that gives permission to ask ques­ tions and not expect answers. GK:

Yeah, exactly. This is why it's almost impossible to talk about what we do. I remem­

ber early on we were working on a project, and I did an interview in the LA Times in which I used the name of a trick in the story. One of our 什iends, a magician, said， “You can’t name it." If you call it by its name, ifs findable in whatever abstract way, and I thought, wow, th afs an amazing lesson. DD:

I think this is where definitions get fuzzy, because what we*re talking about here

is creating actual magic, which cannot be defined other than fuckin’ magie. It’s not science， you can’t name it ■ GK:

It’s c a p ita l“ M ” Magie. DM:

DD:

It's all caps MAGIC.

It is， and if it has a name but it’s not magie ， it，s something else. It，s a technique, it，s

a move, it’s an idea; it’s not magic. But if it，s “ I don’t know,’， then it，s magic. DM: DD:

It’s belief.

Yes, and also magic is a synonym for hope, and a place of potentiality. While Glenn

and I work in the present tense, we strive to get to a place that can never be. We want to get there so we can let other people in. DM: GK:

Certainly hope is something we need more and more of.

Now more than ever.

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When I see two rainbows I will focus on the space between. When I peek, I will still play. When I play, I will still peek. Boredom is not just counter-revolutionary, it is a virus. Let's eradicate boredom. If I believe it to be, it will be magie. If I believe it to be, it will be art.

厶 Tomorrow I will imagine what the person next to me is doing when I am not present, but I will not ask, therefore, I will not be wrong.

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I understand that my humanity is what activates all art and magie, and I will use my powers often and generously.

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THE SPACE BETWEEN A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2011

figs 12

One of A.Bandit's first public performances, The Space Between was the first experiment with what would become its signature two-man format (see also pp. 248-251). One-part studio visit and background and onepart magic show, the performance began the decade-long dialogue about belief systems between A.Bandit and the public that continues today. The show began with DelGaudio and Kaino revealing unknown facts about themselves to each other, in front of the audience, allowing everyone to be in on the foundation of a lasting partnership.

38

A WALK THROUGH CHINA A.Bandit. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011; The Kitchen, New York, 2011

— 12

The art space LAXArt opened an annex in Hollywood and offered A.Bandit the first residency of its new

39

program. In lieu of a ribbon-cutting ceremony, LAXArt wanted an inaugural ceremony to open the space. In doing so, and in line with the consistent challenges to its value systems, the duo created A Walk Through China, which was an opening-night party, a conceptual test, and a symbolic affirmation of the meaning value the space was meant to offer (see also pp. 256-257). This performance began with an expository description of Marco Polo, acknowledging his efforts and celebrating his work throughout the country of China. The duo then brought China Chow, a surprise collabo­ rator, up from the audience.

In 1 2 7 1 M a r c o P o l o s e t s a i l f o r C h i n a . Seventeen years

l a t e r , h e r e t u r n e d to

his h o m e in V e n i c e , a n d , w h e n a s k e d h o w his t r i p was, his s t o r i e s w e r e s o ^ x t r a o r ^ d i n a r y t h a t no o n e b e l i e v e d him. He s p o k e of black rocks that wou l d catch fire and b u r n f o r h o u r s , c l o t h e s l a c e d w i t h g ol d , a n d p l a n t s t h a t w o u l d h e a l t h e sick.

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We w a n t e d t o t a k e y o u on t h a t j o u r n e y a n d g i v e y o u a s t o r y so a m a z i n g t h a t , t o m o r ­ row ; when you tell

people

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trip, t h e y w i l l c a l l y o u a liar. N o w , we r e a l i z e t h a t it is u n r e a l i s t i c a n d f a r t o o e x p e n s i v e to t a k e a l l o f y o u t o C h i n a , so w e h a v e b r o u g h t C h i n a to you. P l e a s e w e l c o m e C h i n a Chow!

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figs. 3-7

standing beside their guest, they began to hum the Europe song “The Final Countdown.” They then proceeded to perform the classic Sawing a Lady in Half illusion. Once Chow was cut in half, the entire audience was

41

encouraged to walk between the two halves of “China” in a symbolic journey and in an act of com plicity with what was to take place in that space.

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SET SALE

Set Sale is a piece that appeared in a series of works performed at The Kitchen in New York (see also pp. 252-257). In the middle of the show, an auctioneer from Christie's walked on stage and began to auction

A.Bandit. The Kitchen,

off an unidentified artwork from A.Bandit. There were no pieces to be viewed, and the two performers stood empty handed, hoping that people would be game. The yet-to-be-seen piece sold for $1,200, and the lucky w inner was invited to join the performers on stage. DelGaudio brought out a sales contract from his coat pocket and had the buyer sign it to seal the transaction. Kaino pulled a flattened, empty bag from his coat and then magically produced a spray-paint can from it, while DelGaudio, with a snap, transformed the contract into a stencil that read "A.Bandit" and held it up to the buyer's chest.

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After a moment's pause, the buyer realized that the artwork he purchased was his own shirt, destined to be

51

marked with the duo’s moniker. He smiled at the realization and said, “go for it!” Kaino sprayed his shirt as the audience cheered.

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Later that evening, w hile A.Bandit celebrated in a nearby bar, the man walked in. The A.Bandit team thanked him for his participation. After letting the duo know he was going to frame the sweater, the buyer said, “ No, thank you, guys! When do you ever get the chance to prove that you 丨 re a believer and that you’re awesome in public!”

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54

TORN AND RESTORN

Kaino has been obsessed with one particular trick ever since he first saw it. The effect is that a magician tears

55

up a newspaper then magically heals it, restoring it to its original form. Kaino initially thought that his attrac­ tion to the trick was simply because it is such a visual effect. You can really see the paper restore itself in front

Glenn Kaino, 2010. Cut found newspaper, dimensions variable

of your eyes. When properly performed, it is remarkable. Magician and author Max Maven was generous enough to give Kaino some more perspective about the conceptual history of magie, speaking about how certain tricks tapped into fundamental narratives, in this case the narrative of resurrection. Already a collector of vintage newspapers for years, Kaino started to cut letters of the alphabet into them, crafting the way that pieces hang from the shapes of the letters. This work is an a rtis fs version of that trick, half-performed. Torn historic markers of a distraught world. Ideas and people that are dead or dying, pre-resurrection, if they end up so lucky. A crisis in suspended animation, impli­ cating the audience as witnesses at the moment of observation.

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OLD METHODS FOR NEW WARS A.Bandit. Storefront for Art and Architecture, New York, 2017

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We begin the year in a time of heightened crisis, a moment of contradiction during which our belief systems

59

about the world are being challenged daily. Today, more than ever before, there is a need to explore the para­ doxical, to be present while being invisible, and to escape while infiltrating. ,lLetters from Prison,'1Antonio Gramsci's seminal work, presented to the world an understanding of the conflicted and complex functions of cultural hegemony, and was a critical tool for freedom that was created in a moment of confinement. Cabaret Series: Old Methods for New Wars \n \Wpresent several magical performances as metaphorical 'letters from prison/ The performances demonstrate the power of magic as a tool to understand the nature of transformation, freedom, and ultimately, hope.

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•Bandit as an “ inverted magie shop.”

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Five objects— a pair of shoes, a map, a film canister, a flashlight, and a Jenga tower—were offered to the public as yet-to-be-created magic tricks. The audience was asked to write down a title, or an effect, for each object and pin it to the wall surrounding it.

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As the ideas were compiled, layers of possible functions imbued these once-inert objects with possibility as the audience became the magicians. The best title: “Guillaume en Egypte is hiding in Shinjuku.”

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THE MISTAKE ROOM A.Bandit. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011; The Kitchen, New York. 2011

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The first iteration took place at LAXArt, the second, pictured here, at The Kitchen (see also pp. 253-254). The Mistake Room took the form of a twenty-square-foot room equipped with a one-way mirror from which the audience could watch various versions of A.Bandit performances, w ith either of them situated on one side or the other. The Mistake Room concept was then expanded as a series of exhibitions, the first held during the A.Bandit residency at LAXArt; eventually it grew to become a fully independent non-profit art space in downtown Los Angeles. The fundamental idea of encouraging failure and of safely experimenting started between two people trusting each other and has now been experienced by thousands.

79

•For his conceptual magic performance on Twitter, DelGaudio set up shop at the LAXArt Annex space. Th^ DelGaudio. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 201A

Iwindows were covered in newspapers to create an informal black-box theater in which DelGaudio performe« traditional magic show for an audience of fifty. (The performance was also projected on a large screen] {mounted to the outside of the gallery.)

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Sitting atop the location of their residency at LAXArt Annex in Hollywood was an empty billboard used for public-service announcements. The tw o couldn’t resist and convinced the powers that be to allow them to serve the public in a new and mysterious way. Once given the billboard, A.Bandit chose to feature a large reproduction of the back of one of their playing cards. This was a powerful symbol of the potential of the unknown, as the card's face would never be revealed. There was rum or of an A.Bandit perform ance in which the featured card was flipped over and revealed, but if that was true, no documentation was ever found.

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This portrait of the magician Ricky Jay was created using the technique of throwing cards made famous by Jay

91

himself in his book Cards as Weapons (1977). In Untitled (Ricky Jay), playing cards, seemingly tacked to the wall in random formation, begin to resolve into an image of Jay as the viewer moves in front the picture plane. As he or she walks away, the shadows cast by the cards form lines that lengthen as one's distance from the image grows, creating the illusion of an aging portrait. This is a story about a technique that became a story itself, which in turn turned back into a technique. One night Kaino threw some cards "into" a wall, eventually creating a wall drawing as a meditation on the staggering amount of effort and w ill that Jay must have invested in his training. Kaino ended up creating a portrait, but figured he would change the subject upon exhibition, because the technique discovered was to be applied differently than in the initial sketch. A big fan of Jay's entire body of work, Kaino had been in no rush to meet him. However, a local gallerist brokered an introduction, showing to Jay Kaino's first book, Communicating Rooks. Reacting positively to the book, months later Jay sent a copy of his Extraordinary Exhibitions (2005). Each had slipped a note into his book inviting a meeting, but both left out any means of contact. Kaino was nevertheless thrilled at their virtual relationship. In the dynamic space of his imagination, they had already met, shared secrets, become friends, had fights, developed a mutual respect, and launched projects, the relationship having evolved to a place where they just didn’t need to talk to each other that often. One night, a magician who had been in Kaino's studio saw the portrait of Jay and was struck by its method and form. This magician later had the opportunity to meet Jay at a party and used Kaino as an ice­ breaker to talk about his own work. Toward the end of the conversation, he asked Jay, "have you seen the portrait that Glenn made of you?” Knowing that Jay is a private man， Kaino had been respecting that boundary. He was embarrassed at the idea of alarming Jay with this account, which must have made him seem like an obsessed fan. Kaino had no the intention of exhibiting the portrait of Jay, but after this episode could think of no other option but to make it public. This is the portrait of Ricky Jay that should never have been. It is a monument to Jay's commitment as a metaphor for belief. It is a novelty act transcended into high-art conceptual portraiture, and also an embarrassingly large piece of fan-boy art.

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MY HOUSE WILL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF ART

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The first public project by A. Band it, M y AVoi/se Will Be Called a House o M r f was an intervention performed at the first Art Los Angeles Contemporary Fair. The duo methodically walked up and down the aisles of the fair, DelGaudio pushing a large wooden box w ith Kaino carrying a boombox playing UC.R.E.A.M.Mfrom Wu-Tang Clan loudly; over two hundred fair attendees began to follow them in a procession.

A. Band it. Art Los Angeles Contemporary Fair, Barker Hanger, Santa Monica, California, 2011

fig. 2

As they stopped at each booth, the two presented the gallery a note; a few willingly gave them artworks that

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On the day of the dinner, the perform ance began w ith a short presentation outside behind the dining area, an engaging dialogue about the evening and the expectations for the event. Kaino and DelGaudio gave a short history of A.Bandit and talked about the exchange between art and magic. The group was then encouraged to follow the artists down to the pool for an impromptu conversation about Harry Houdini and his water-torture cell.

DELGAUDIO

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[More hands drop.]

into a b o x f i l l e d w i t h w a t e r t h a t was locked from the o u t s i d e . Right before

DELGAUDIO

being submerged, Houdini w o uld tell the

In fact, H o u d i n i o n l y h a d o n e s e c r e t . A n d

c r o w d , “E v e r y o n e r a i s e y o u r h a n d . W h e n I

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last hand drops.]

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everyone,

KAINO raise your hands

a n d h o l d y o u r b r e a t h . W h e n y o u n e e d to

[abruptly interrupting] O h , looks like w e ’ re o u t o f b r e a t h .

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[ D e l G a u d i o and Kaino drop the perfor­ mance a t the pool and move to the next location. The guests follow with the hopes that the next location will provide some closure. It will not.]

T h e a u d i e n c e w o u l d b e g i n t o s c r e a m , “L e t h i m o u t !’ ’ 工t w a s n ’t u n t i l t h e a u d i e n c e was on the b r i n k

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From there, the audience was encouraged to follow the duo down to the garden.

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At the garden, the duo spoke about tw o “ magical orange trees.” The first story was about the Marvelous Orange Tree trick created by Jean-Eugene Robert-Houdin, the French magician who, in September of 1856, came out of retirement to help suppress tribal revolutions against the French colonial government in Algeria. The second story was a Haitian folktale about a young girl who plants an orange tree and asks it, tim e and time again, to help free her from the clutches of her evil stepmother. Eventually, the orange tree hears the girKs call and grows into the clouds, taking her stepmother from the earth. Orange tree, Grow and grow and grow. Orange tree, orange tree, Grow and grow and grow, Orange tree. Stepmother is not real mother, Orange tree.

fig. 5 (follow ing spread)

Though the presentation felt magical, there was no performance; rather, the audience was again encouraged to follow the duo down a long staircase to the unkempt horse stable at the bottom of the property.

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This trial was meant to be simultaneously encouraging and discouraging, creating hope for the magic eventually to be witnessed, but also stoking frustration with the seemingly endless steps and unknown con­ clusion. After Slydini's trial was completed, however, the audience's relationship to the magical performance

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FBD

A.Bandit Log

pg. 182

A.Bandit. Private residence, Los Angeles, 2010

Location: P r i v a t e R e s i d e n c e D a t e : 0 9 • 1 5 . l〇 S u m m o n e d to a f u n d r a i s i n g event at the house of a H o l l y w o o d agent, the duo was a s k e d several times to stay and wait for R obert D e N i r o ; who was on his w a y and w a n t e d to m e e t t h e m . As it t u r n e d o u t ; D e N i r o was three hours late and, w h e n he a r r i v e d ； had no idea who t h e y w e r e . N e v e r t h e l e s s ; t h e y were a s k e d to have a c o n v e r s a t i o n w i t h the a c t o r ; w h i c h b e g a n and ended w i t h “B o b b y D 〃 t r y i n g to tell t h e m h o w all of t h e i r magic was done and h e c k l i n g d u r i n g what was inten d e d to be a v e r y s p e c i a l ; p e r s o n a l p r e s e n t a t i o n . The boys got up and l e f t , c o i n i n g a new p hrase along the w a y : FBD. T h e y d i d n ' t even n e e d to t r a n s l a t e it to each other, or to the rest of the c r e w ..

118

THE NOTHING HAPPENING

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The Nothing Happening was inspired by a passage from Jean G enefs novel Prisoner o f Love, wherein the protagonist encounters a group of soldiers in a cave playing a game of cards w ithout cards. This A.Bandit

A.Bandit. Greystone Mansion, Beverly Hills, California, 2012

performance included the audience as collaborative actors in a game of poker played with blank-faced cards.

As the dealers called out their imagined flop cards to a group of rotating players who themselves were holding cards without markings, a moment of collective hallucination was experienced as numbers and pips seemingly appeared on the faces. In the four-hour game, only one person cheated. (She was an art consultant.)

120

R ISE OF THE NEW IMAGINISTS A.Bandit. Unrealized exhibition

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An imaginary group show featuring a diverse assortment of performers and artists, “Rise of the New Imaginists” was conceived as an exercise in the expansion of the A.Bandit worldview. People with whom A.Bandit had positive partnerships were assembled in a fantasy show that would still be fantastic today.

121

WITNESS

124

TYRANNY OF VISION A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2010; The Kitchen, New York, 2011

Tyranny o f vision is a conceptual performance that happens in split-second intervals, in the dark (see also

125

pp. 249-251). The visual evidence of the performance that is revealed in the flashes of a strobe light only hint at unseen work. The piece begins with Kaino performing one of the most classic effects in magic: the Chinese Linking Rings. He shows one ring, then the other, links them, and then unlinks them. Out of the shadows, DelGaudio appears with a basketball in hand. He explains: "The Chinese Linking Rings. Some say ifs one of the oldest tricks in magic. If forced to describe how this illusion works, some might say it's sleight of hand, the hand is quicker than the eye. But really, it is an illusion of depth, it 'works* because of light. So we asked ourselves, what happens if you remove some of that light. Could you experience more by seeing less?"

COULD YOU EXPERIENCE MORE BY SEEING LESS?

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When the lights come back on, DelGaudio continues: "Nope! The experiment was a failure. We realized we

129

were doing it wrong. What if you didn’t try to focus on the light, but instead the spaces between the light?

Perhaps then, the trick you thought you were seeing is not what you are seeing." The strobe light comes back on, and Kaino seemingly stands perfectly still, about to do the trick. When the house lights kick on, the audience sees he’s actually doing the trick as fast as he can. When the house lights go off again, Kaino seems to be holding still perfectly—although in fact he is not, he's actually jackham­ mering away. This cycle is repeated a few times, and then blackout, and then applause. In the end, loud rap music erupts, sounding like a basketball game. Kaino announces: "Ladies and gentlemen, please w elcom e to the stage the world-fam ous Floating Ball illusion performed by Derek!” DelGaudio dribbles a basketball, then starts throwing it from hand to hand to the beat of the strobe light. The ball appears to be floating in space when the strobe flashes. Then DelGaudio moves his hands further and further away from each other in what seems an impossible distance.

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184 SECONDS Derek DelGaudio. LAXArt Annex, Los Angeles, 2011: The Kitchen, New York, 2011

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184 Seconds, a seemingly simple and iconic performance piece by DelGaudio, premiered as a solo event at LAXArt Annex in 2011. DelGaudio sits at a table with four decks of playing cards in front of him. He asks a spectator to tim e him for one minute. The spectator says go. DelGaudio begins to deal cards rapidly. Once he deals an entire deck he moves on to the next.

figs. 2-3

134

At one minute the spectator says stop. DelGaudio stops dealing and writes something down on a piece of

135

paper, stands up, and leaves. The viewers are left with cards scattered all over the table and a piece of paper that reads, “ 184 seconds in a minute.” To the uninitiated, it would appear that DelGaudio sat at the table, dealt cards for one minute, wrote something down, and exited, leaving viewers with a mess of cards and a cryptic note. In truth DelGaudio was secretly performing a famously difficult cheating technique known as the second deal, or "seconds,n in which one deals the second card from the pack while retaining the top card the entire time. Seconds embodies the conceptual potential of secrecy and its paradox; knowing that it exists ceases its existence. The performance asks a profound question that challenges the artistic gesture: Can an artwork be an artwork if nobody sees it as such?

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A sculpture made from secrets is held together within a safe. In an attempt to sculpt with invisible materials,

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the artist gathered over 220 secrets over the course of a year from a wide range of individuals involved in the business world, the art circuit, the entertainment and fashion industries, and politics.

Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010

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138

The material of the work is its content, charged with symbolic value. The work exists through a legally binding

139

notification that states that the safe may never be opened, even if the work is purchased. If it is opened, the object ceases to be an artwork.

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The card magician's bible is The Expert at the Card Table: The Classic Treatise on Card Manipulation (1902).

CIRRUS EDITIONS Glenn Kaino, 2010. Lithograph on paper,

141

It was written pseudo-anonymously by an author named S. W. Erdnase, whose exact identity magicians have ЗОУл

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been chasing after for over a hundred years. Besides having written descriptions of some of the most advanced techniques in card manipulation, the book has 101 illustrations of the sleight-of-hand moves. DelGaudio came by the studio one night and brought with him a meticulously organized chart of all the moves, in order, and proceeded to show Kaino each one as they discussed the correlation between a performance and its subse­ quent documentation. Documenting moves thatare m eantto be invisible by making drawings that are explicit is a paradox and runs contrary to a still life, for which one draws what one sees. After DelGaudio left, Kaino electronically scanned the images and began manipulating them. Inspired by the skill he had just witnessed in DelGaudio, the concept of the secrets within us, and the invisible things from which we are made, Kaino discovered that a repositioning of the diagrams looked like a double-helix formation, and that the letters "DNA" were hidden inside the name Erdnase. This is a DNA test result for those who are indeed made of magic.

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142

THE GRAND FINALE Glenn Kaino, 2010. Video; 5:48 minutes

fig. 1

In 1917 Marcel Duchamp made a portrait of himself with a funhouse mirror, which replicated his image four times, creating a five-way prism of representation. This seminal picture was created just prior to Duchamp’s invention of Rrose Selavy and the splintering of his identity as an artist. One day Kaino was talking about Duchamp with DelGaudio, flipping through a book on the artist. Upon seeing a photo in the book, DelGaudio exclaimed, “ I know the guy who has that mirror!” As it turned out, he was talking about John Gaughan, who indeed had the m irror at his workshop. Surprisingly, Gaughan offered to let the duo borrow it, so the tw o set it up in the studio and played with it for months. Kaino took every type of still image one can imagine. After hundreds of shots, he realized that he had never seen a moving image recorded in the mirror. Then one night, after a long session, it hit Kaino: he had figured out how to “break the mirror,” its illusory function as a device to replicate the viewer. By making eye contact with the camera lens, and thereby engaging the viewer directly via one of the mirror images, one of the reflections seems to come to the fore and becomes the focus of the view er’s attention. One person becomes many, and the synchronicity of the viewing angles of the subject is fractured. Kaino recorded, in one take, a lip sync to the only song he could remember all the words to that had five singers: "The Grand Finale11from the DOC featuring NWA. The Grand Finale was an inversion of what Duchamp's portrait represented, which was a moment of a fractured trajectory. For Kaino, breaking the mirror was the fusion of a m ultifaceted practice into a singular whole existing in several simultaneous planes of signification.

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A.BANDIT DECK OF CARDS A. Bandit, 2010. Ink on paper,

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of text on the 什ont quotes author Hakim Bey: “ Is it possible to create a Secret Theater in which both artist and audience have completely disappeared— only to re-appear on another plane, where life and art have become the same thing, the pure giving of gifts?” The sticker seal is a lock that, when opened, reveals a secret message. Two of the kings feature selfportraits of the artists, and the back of each of the finely weighted and textured cards features a reproduction of a Descartes image of a double rainbow (see p. 36)，the Alexander’s band, from which the duo takes its name.

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On the way they talked about Gaughan's magic wands. Gaughan makes the wands that the Magic Castle gives out to the winners of the Magician of the Year award. One cannot buy these wands. One has to earn them. In that respect, they are priceless. Kaino had the crazy idea to ask Gaughan if he would collaborate on a series of wands for specific con­ ceptual artists. He surprisingly said yes. Not only did he agree to help create the work, he seemed energized and enthusiastic about the project. After a working session, Gaughan told Kaino about the Mantle of Magic. The Mantle of Magic is a symbol bestowed upon the world's greatest prestidigitator. In a famous ceremony, Harry Kellar, the most famous magician of his time, passed the mantle to his successor, Howard Thurston, who years later passed it to his successor. Posters have commemorated this process, which is a profound gesture in multiple ways. The wands Kaino had been building— — symbolic tokens encapsulating the power of conceptual artists— — could function in a similar way.

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Always fans of the diagrammatic, and cognizant that documenting its steps into the unknown would be needed

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to chart its journey, A.Bandit has made several drawings of their conversations. On many an occasion, a fourhour conversation would be instigated with lines and four words. On one particular evening, 146 note cards appeared on a wall, each with a story, reference, and provocation. Through the drawings, the A.Bandit studio merged research, ideation, and recreation into a fluid private performance every day.

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Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010

Card Table by S. W. Erdnase. The casts were placed on a table— a quarter cut from a round table— — with a mirrored corner, which created the illusion of a much larger pile of hands on a fully round table. The individual castings were imperfect and deformed due to DelGaudio's rushed effort and impatience with the process. The imperfection spoke to the very nature of the paradox of DelGaudio's sacrifice over his lifetime of practice, the incredible patience he devoted to his rigorous study of card handling contrasting with his impatience with the process of translating that into an artwork for the very first time.

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A secret room is constructed in an exhibition space. The entryway to the space is concealed, and the door leading to it is equipped with a coin-operated lock similar to those used to control access to public restrooms.

Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010

Visitors receive an editioned coin, signed and numbered by the artist, inside a closed plastic container.

fig. 3

Those who find the door to the secret room realize the artwork is in fact an experience that is only accessible upon surrendering the object. It was a test. What is more valuable, an artifact representing an experience not had, or a memory of chance taken?

A.RT ACTIVATOR A.Bandit. The Kitchen, New York, 2011

figs. 1—3

Prior to entering the show, each audience member has a hand stamped with the letters “A.RT.” Then the house lights dim, and a stage light begins to glow to reveal the tw o performers flanking a large disc w ith a spiral pattern on it. They introduce the wheel as an “activator” and ask the audience to stare directly into its center while they spin it. The wheel creates a magical illusion, a temporary distortion of one’s actual vision. After several seconds of staring at the wheel, the tw o tell the audience to look down directly at their hands. The word “A.RT” appears to “ bubble” on their skin, an effect at once terrifying and mystifying. (See also p. 253.)

THE LINKING RINGS Glenn Kaino, 2012. Video; 5:27 minutes

figs. 1-3

The Linking Rings is a short film featuring the classic Linking Rings trick performed by an invisible agent in front of a red curtain. As the work utilizes the illusory effect that light and reflection have on depth, the rings appear to connect and disconnect and to create a series of dynamic Venn diagrams in the air, sections inter­ secting and disconnecting, implying the spaces created and dissolved within the space of illusion.

177

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LOCKS A.Bandit. SoHo House. West Hollywood, 2010

figs. 1- 2

Audience members are asked to choose from different colored strips of paper as admission-ticket receipts at

179

the beginning of the evening. Toward the end of the show, during the final conversation between DelGaudio and Kaino on stage, DelGaudio brings out a portfolio of oversized images, featuring exploded diagrams of locks. Thumbing through the images, the two describe the locks and then, after a quick magical gesture, display the images a second tim e to reveal their transformation.

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THE OUT-OF­ FOCUS GROUP

184

RICKY JAY AND JOHN BALDESSARI

GK:

Glenn Kaino

Interview with Ricky Jay and John Baldessari, A.Bandit studio, Hollywood, California, July 7,2016

DD:

Derek DelGaudio

JB:

John Baldessari

GK:

RJ:

Ricky Jay

of us getting together, we were talking about art and magic and what we felt was an

We have been working together for eight-and-a-half years now. In the first month

inversion of crises in the respective fields: that art has been hyper-professionalized, and m a g ic... DD:

... is a handful of professionals in a sea of amateurs. Just in terms of how few pro­

fessional magicians there are, even counting the ones who claim theyYe professionals. JB: DD:

Well, they wouldn't be very good if you knew who they were.

Fair enough. [Laughter.]

GK:

So we thought that art could take itself less seriously, because art had been

hyper-professionalized; an extremely clear caste system had been created. But magic could maybe take itself more seriously. And one of our goals— this is eight-and-a-half-years ago and w e’re not making th is up— we envisioned w hat would be the ultim ate conversation: the tw o of you having a dialogue w ith us about art and magic. So thank you so much for being here. We understand you're probably here for each other instead of us, but still it's nice you’re here. DD:

We take it where we can get it.

GK:

One thing for us to begin with is the idea of pointing and direction. In both of your

work, you function as choreographers of expectation, right?What isart?W hatam I seeing? How does that come into play when you’re crafting your work? JB:

Well, first of all, one thing comes to mind right away: for years I had this

tiny snapshot in a frame over my desk. It was of a bowl full of water. And every time I looked at it, it played an optical trick. It became empty, it became full, it became empty, it became full, according to how the light was falling on it. It was always an inspiration to me.

Then there's the whole issue of trompe I'oeil painting, fooling the eye; ifs a whole honorable tradition. I did a work called While Something Is Happening Here, Something Else Is Happening There, with the idea of diverting attention.

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[Laughter.]

RJ:

That makes me think of a great story. There was a famous magician

named Mark Wilson, who was a television magician for decades. To be absolutely honest, he wasn't good at all. At one point Dai Vernon, who was the greatest sleight-of-hand artist— he and Charlie M iller— of the tw entieth century, spent

DD:

The interesting question is if it was a viewer or a magician who named it that.

finger, like that. You know, this awful gesture [pointing to his open hand]. Vernon

GK:

Well, this is a perfect segue into the next topic: the idea of mischief and playfulness.

worked w ith the son for a whole afternoon to get him to stop doing that. And at

As magicians and artists, we have the opportunity to be playful and to be tricksters but to

some tim e with this guy’s son, because the father was doing many bad techniques

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in magic. Like, he would apparently put something in his hand and point with his

the end of the day, the fellow asked his son, “ how are you doing?” And his son

do that in seriousness, which is an amazing contradiction for us to live inside 一 all of our

showed him that he no longer held his hand like that. And the father said, "No,

work does that. Can you speak to that a bit?

no, no, you’re doing it all wrong. You have to do th is”一 exactly what Vernon had JB:

spent the afternoon teaching him not to do. He had so little understanding.

Well, right away, I think of the king and his comic, who is supposed to

keep him amused. JB:

When I was a kid living in San Diego, there was a magic store and you

could go and buy magic tricks. I used to hang out there all the tim e. I really

GK:

The jester, yes.

loved it. JB: DD:

Oh, I didn't know that. You did magic as a child? GK: JB:

GK:

And if the jester is not doing a good job, he’s gonna get cut.

No, but I was fascinated.

Some of your work is really playful, like / Will Not Make Any More Boring A rt ^ 971 ],

but has also shaped scholarship, which is amazing. Do you find that amusing? JB:

In researching for this conversation, we saw that Michael Govan said something

Well, one of my working principles has always been what can I get away

with? [Laughter.] That will carry you a long way.

striking about your work, John: “Sometimes he takes the thing that’s the most obvious in the center of your vision away, forces you to look at everything else for the first time to make new sense of what you’re seeing.” Can you speak to that a bit?

DD:

Is part of it fighting against the status quo of w hat’s happening and w ha t’s

out there? JB:

Well, I think about magic as diversion and getting you to look someplace

else so you can get away with what you're doing. People think that looking at

JB:

the obvious is a given. But it^s not a given. Ifs a basis of [laughs] what an artist

I think about myself and Г т tall, right? People have expectations of tall people. I

Yeah, like what people expect of you. Stuff gets projected on you. I mean,

does, you know, is getting you to look someplace else and pay attention to some­

don't know what they are: John Wayne, the circus, whatever. But one of my tricks

thing else.

when I go to a social gathering is to sit down so I look like everybody else. So ifs a really disguise. RJ:

RJ:

The misconception in magic is the idea of misdirection, which in fact is

It exists in our world too, obviously. But I think in terms of what you were

asking, it was more a choice to do something that other people weren't doing. It

direction.

wasn't to be different; it was just to be me. I was not interested in that magic-store

JB:

Right.

was that week and that's w hat they all started to do. That just didn't seem to

RJ:

You’re not telling someone to look somewhere else. You’re directing them

m entality where everybody w ent to the store and asked what the new piece make sense. I think the most important thing in many ways for me was when my inter­

to look where you want them to look, which I think is what you’re saying aboutyour

est in history started to mesh with my interest in performance. Initially, those two

work as well.

things were fighting each other. Am I going to be a historian and write about this or am I going to continue to perform? Finally realizing that those could be inte­

DD:

Why do you think that misconception came about?

grated was key for me. That's part of what made what I was doing so different.

RJ:

That’s actually a good question」 Ve never thought about the origin of it,

but it's sexier. Yeah.

the Stem [2002]. There was a wonderful old story I found from a Swiss writer. The story was about a collector who invited someone over to his home. In my telling, I would describe these fabulous Audubon prints that the collector wanted to sell.

I always thought a cool way to dress at a party would be to take a ballpoint

pen and circle all your flaws.

These were cherished prints of his. And when the visitor got to the home, the collector’s wife said ， “ I’m so sorry. What you don't know is, to keep this man alive, IVe been selling off his prints

[Laughter.]

all these years. He’s now totally blind, so he has no idea. When you go through the pages， please don’t say anything.” And so the collector lovingly goes through what are supposed to be Audubon prints— explaining this shows the wild turkey, this the bald eagle, this

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Like the story, although this was much later in my career, that I did in On

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the Carolina parakeets thatVe been extinct for years— displaying these prints

DD:

[Laughs.] That's interesting.

GK:

But, obviously, in your work ifs a bit different, right?

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one by one. And on stage I would do that. I would show many large Audubon prints. Then I would give the punch line and say, what the man did not realize is that the RJ:

prints had been sold; the blind man lovingly traced his fingers overthe blank pages

Well, I don4 know. I mean, one could say the same thing, but it's certainly

as he described his invisible collection. At that moment, all the prints suddenly

not geared toward that. I have done both film and television that was meant for

transform into blank sheets of paper and I just throw them on the stage.

those mediums. But certainly the live performance is the key to everything.

JB:

Well, there’s always the classic movie shot where there’s a prone figure

GK:

You guys are breaking our hearts, because we really believe in the notion that there

on the floor: is he dead or alive? The eyes are shut. But then there's the second

is an elevated engagement w ith our artw ork by having people actually be present, as

shot where one eye begins to open, which is beautiful. It's all about suspense.

humans seeing things. Clearly works circulate in media—well, in mediated versions— but Ith in k th a t particularly for some of the performance work seeing it in person is a big thing.

RJ:

Yeah. JB:

DD:

There’s an issue of money involved. It’s probably not so involved in magie.

The history thing is interesting to me, because one of the realizations I had when

But I was just at this collector's home. She had just sold her CyTwombly for $70.5

I started diving into the art world is magicians often are looking back. You’re the only person

million. You look at a Cy Twombly and say a kid could do that. So there you really

to me who really does it right in terms of carrying historical things forward and presenting

have to have detectives at work.

them in the right context and in a way that's meaningful. But I think most magicians are stuck with what has been. Do you think about modernity, or is that natural for you? RJ:

I don4 know that it's natural at all, because I have such trouble with tech­

nology. I'm such a Luddite.

EJ: GK:

[Laughs.]

Well, that’s true. That brings to mind, I once spoke to a collector who said a horrible

thing. He said, "I collect paintings so that other people can't see them /1He was trying to craft a rarity of images and hide them, as a way of appreciating their value. That was horrible to me. So, in that way media helps, because it allows more people to experience—

GK:

Does the viewer’s actual, physical presence with a work matter?

JB:

Well, th a t’s how you own stolen paintings. Because if anybody sees

them, then you're busted. RJ:

It does for me. I would think it does for you. RJ:

GK:

How much does it matter to you if a viewer sees a John Baldessari piece in person

Well, my dreadful m agic-collecting story is of a wealthy man who col­

lected magical rarities. He had the only known copy of an issue of a rare magic

versus seeing it in a reproduction?

magazine. And when he found a second copy of the same issue, he bought it and destroyed it. So think about that.

JB:

Oh, would never see the piece itself, but would see it printed in a book,

you mean? RJ:

Right. Right.

DD:

When you make a piece, do you have an interaction in mind for how the viewer

should engage with it, o ris it just made and put into the world and however they see it, live, GK:

Is there a priority for you to have your audience—

on paper, in a book—

N 0 , 1don’t think so.

JB:

My mantra is keep them guessing.

RJ:

You don't think they get a different experience out of seeing the actual

RJ:

[Laughs.] I suppose mine is, if I don't think about that I won't keep them

piece?

guessing.

JB:

Oh, they probably do.

RJ:

It just doesn’t matter to you.

[Laughter.] DD:

Right. And do you think, because youVe done so much television in the past, do

you th in k the w ork fundam entally changes on television, or do you alter it to do JB:

Personally, I don4 care. We constantly get requests every day to repro­

duce work. Ifs fine with me. Ifs just more publicity.

television?

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JB:

RJ:

JB:

I don’t so much change the piece, but I choose pieces very carefully. It’s

No. That was me later. But I got a lot of mileage out of that.

9:

not out of a fear of exposure. It’s the fear of the cameraman not getting the [Laughter.]

necessary shot, which doesn't allow for the plot. So you need to control that or at least try to control it. I really love these pieces of yours throwing balls [Centering Bouncing f e / / (1971)]_ I would love to know what made you think of that initially.

GK:

Yeah. Another thing we talk about is concealment. We have a work in which one

of the lines is "seeing more by seeing less”_ this idea that you’re going to reframe the notion of one’s point of view, to open up optics on what else is there. Sometimes it’s explicit like in

JB：

Oh, yeah. I remember very clearly. It was part of a series of projects and

performances sponsored by M oM A in New York. They had these very famous

those works. Other tim es it’s im plicit. It’s not a direct visual correlation w ith this idea of seeing less.

German/Hungarian photographers down there, [Harry] Shunkand [Janos] Kender. JB:

You were asked to do anything you wanted to do and then they would have to

Uh-huh.

document it. I thought, well, they're famous, Г т not. I'm gonna do something to really fuck them up.

GK:

But when you say this is a painting or you're obscuring what a real painting is,

you’re obscuring what the actual expectation of art is. And within that you’re opening up [Laughter.]

what art can be. The same way with magic, when you’re not giving someone something ， you’re actually giving them much more.

I said, "Listen, my project is very simple. See this red ball? Yeah. Г т gonna throw JB:

it in the air and you get it exactly in the middle of the photograph.” And that was it.

Well, IVe achieved a kind of success with what I do now. Ifs kind of recon­

figuring old artists' paintings, and people won4 accept that because they think Г т RJ:

doing some trickery.

It’s like Spot the Spot, in a way.

Can you explain Spot the Spot for the rest us?

GK:

When you were making those first series of conceptual paintings in the 1970s,

was there a conscious effort to not give the public what they wanted or what they expected RJ:

Ifs a carnival game, but a bit of a con. The idea is you’re given discs and

when walking into a museum?

there is a spot, like a single red dot, on a canvas. From a certain height, you’re supposed to drop like five discs to completely cover the spot. Ifs a wagering game, a betting game.

JB:

Well, back then there was— I guess it would be early 1970s, hippie times,

right? One hippie notion was that there was plant intelligence. Plants, you could talk to them. And people would, in fact, talk to their plants if they wanted them to

JB:

Yeah.

grow.

Once again, controllable in an unusual way. The operator does it almost

I have a video where Г т just trying to teach a plant the alphabet.

So I kind of just pushed that a little bit further. I got some alphabet cards. RJ:

arbitrarily first. He just tosses and covers them like that, and then you go. He scoops them up and hands them to you. And you сапЧ do it. You'll spend a month

[Laughter]

there and never do it. RJ: JB: The whole question of the meaning of the word “randomness，” what does randomness mean? I have no idea.

Well, there's som ething lovely about when an institution becomes

involved in keeping an artist's deception alive. Like, when you were talking about MoMA, it reminded me of one time when I walked in knowing nothing about an exhibition. I think the guy is a Spanish artist, Fontcuberta. The show featured pho­ tographs of animals, with this long story about howthey were captured in the wild

sleight-of-hand man; he?s a M acArthur Fellow, and one of his main subject is ran­

and there was a snake with legs. You were watching this and suddenly it became

domness. H e^ a statistician.

completely clear that these things were absolutely made up. But here it was in MoMA, with nothing giving you a hint about this at all.

I actually used that as an idea for a series of works. I would take, like, three

I just remember being transformed in five minutes from how I felt going

little red balls. Td start easy, three balls, and then I went up to four balls and five

in. I went to see something else and here was a show. It was on the walls. What is

balls. I would throw them into the air. The idea was to try to get them lined up in a

this? It was like a flying unicorn. And then you’re reading the text and there’s this

JB:

straight line while in the air. Of course, I could never do it. But it was titled that,

incredible history of finding the works of a long-dead German naturalist and

Throwing Three Balls in the A ir to Get a Straight Line (Best o f Thirty-Six Attempts) [1973].

anthropologist. Suddenly you just start laughing. I mean, youYe just gone. There’s something about the institution’s sanctioning or acceptance that made that experience far more fun. And then, of course, there's the whole w on­

RJ：

Oh, so that’s it. Those weren’t taken by the same German photographers?

derful Museum of Jurassic Technology—

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Our friend has made almost a life study of that. Persi [Diaconis] is a great

RJ:

1

JB:

RJ:

I f s like when people didn't travel a lot and nobody had an idea of what a

Well, it works in the art world as well. I mean, [David] Hockney and the

whole idea of lenses being used; we could talk about that a lot from a technological

rhinoceros looked like, you get these very strange drawings of rhinoceroses.

point of view. His whole theory about the use of lenses in painting — RJ:

9;

The idea

behind it doesn’t make a painter or a painting less exciting or less important. So

Sure.

on that level, I can say the exposure of secrets doesn’t have anything to do with JB:

the art. Really, they're tools. It's still dependent on the magician, but it doesn't

And then that went even further along. Then you have animals made to

look like animals that never existed [laughs].

cheapen the art. Thafs a major reason for these things to be preserved.

RJ:

learning something in confidence 什om the inventor of that technique and you’re

Also, there’s something truly w onderful about the lineage of it. You’re Well, haven't you done some stuff like this?

keeping his confidence. It’s because of your own level in the field that you’ve been GK:

Yes, I made a series of hybrid taxidermies.

turned onto this. You choose to share it or not share it. And it is important. There

RJ:

it. I think that's fine, even though the secret itself is not the end all.

really are people who are preservers of that tradition and care passionately about Right. I’m very fond of an animal that was billed as the bonasus in 1821.

Londoners saw all these broadsides at the time, many of which I've collected, announcing the arrival of the bonasus, an animal never before seen by man, with

DD:

Sure. That makes sense.

the horns of an antelope and the hind quarters of a lion, etc. etc. JB: JB:

Yeah. Years back, he [Hockney] painted my portrait and I could see him

working, but I couldn't see the development of the painting. When it was all fin­

Yeah.

ished he had given me striped pants. And I was wearing something like this. RJ:

And what, am I gonna say no, I don't want that? It was a David Hockney painting,

It was actually the American bison, but was exhibited in Europe when it

was called by its scientific name, the Bison bonasus. To say it was the buffalo,

come on.

nobody would go to the exhibit. But to call it the bonasus— — [Laughter.] GK:

It makes me think of a jackalope. Like, a jackalope— GK: RJ:

Yeah, a jackalope is a perfect example.

Well, I love the idea that weYe talking about the currency of things that are imma­

terial, ideas, because a secret is an idea, right? A secret is not an object. An object has a secret perhaps, but we're talking about conceptual art and we're having a robust dialogue

GK:

— comes from a specific cancerthat happens in rabbits which gives them horns.

about valuing what these things are and weYe literally talking about nothing. And the work is the proxy of those ideas into the world, right, whether through performance or through

RJ:

Barnum, at his museum, would have a sign “To the Egress.” Some people

painting or video or an app?

thought the egress was an animal instead of the exit, where they would go out. RJ: JB:

Well, there are still people in the world who think zebras are painted

Well, Г т not sure if that's the proxy as much as the point, you know, that

that’s the real experience?

horses. I thought even in flipping that, it would be great to see a western where cavalries were riding zebras.

JB:

I’d love to read a book contrasting the words “actual” and “fake” and

where do you draw the line? I mean, I would have no idea. It would be a great RJ:

That would be.

discussion.

[Laughter.] Ricky, I have a question. John, ГИ let Glenn translate the art version for you. But my

question is about the preservation of secrets. The very small collective of magicians values

DD:

[Laughs.]

Do you find it challenging or at times exhausting to protect or conceal something

in order to give people the intended experience?

secrets in a way that I don*t think is common; for me personally, they are extremely im port­ RJ:

preserving secrets is so important.

I had become magic’s policeman, that there was a thing beyond me and it’s fallen

M agicians are actually a lot more liberal about secrets than you might think.

Yeah. I also kind of resent it. I’m at a period in my life where I’m realizing

on me and others. But to have to make people try to understand th a t...

Everyone thinks of magicians as hoarding their secrets. Unfortunately, th a fs actually not

You сапЧ control other people doing what they do. You can just hope they

true. They’ve turned it into an economic system, where secrets are traded for as much

appreciate it. I think it all comes down to, in terms of my world—and I’d love to hear

as, le fs say, a painting. You create a secret and then you sell it and then you sell a million

your answer to this—that it's just like politics for me. The only good politics is

of them.

leading an exemplary life. The only thing good fo rth e art of magic is doing magic well. There’s nothing else.

CQ

M H O f амуAvr AMOIH

ant. Ifs definitely a major part of my practice. But IVe never heard you talk about why

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DD:

RJ:

DD:

For the public?

RJ:

Yeah. That s nice. It s funny that you said magie is a closed system,

1 9 1

because I think that magic couldn't be a more open system. It's a fierce m eritoc­ RJ:

I don4 even know if I would add that on.

racy. So the difference is anybody can have access to anything. They just have to earn i t I’ve always been uncomfortable as a teacher. I just don’t like that experience.

DD:

Really? Okay. Just doing it well. DD: RJ:

You strike me as a lifelong student, in a sense.

Yeah. Doing it well for yourself would be fine. RJ:

Thafs one of the answers. That's my stock answer, Г т still learning. I'm

absolutely a student. Charlie Miller, one of the greatest practitioners who ever lived, had a copy of Modern Magic— Modern Magic was written in 1876— by his GK:

John, I was inspired to hearyou talk about teaching. You have been a very influential

bedside when he died.

teacher both to artists in the studio and in universities. DD: JB:

Right.

Have you ever had any challenges or even thoughts about paying it forward in a

sense? When the documentary [Deceptive Practice: The Mysteries and Mentors o f Ricky Jay (2012)] came out, the challenge of capturing a man who doesn't talk about himself

GK:

Ricky, there’s no great university for magic in that way. It’s by nature a very closed

was clear.

system, right? And art has over the last few decades become a more open system. John, when you talk to students, what is your take on having them be inspired by

The movie became about these amazing mentors you had and even the ones you never met, the ones you knew through books. But after that movie came out— and I don’t

your work? Not having people mimic your output, but be inspired by the ideas of how you

even know if it made it up the ladder to you— — among the magic world there was a sense

made the work as opposed to what your work has become?

that you had all these great mentors but you have never paid it forward. Not that you have an obligation to, but that conversation happened and maybe continues to happen. Do you

JB:

I’m thinking a lot of writers have done that.

think about that ever? I mean, you have to be true to yourself. And if you're uncomfortable being a teacher, I understand that as well.

GK:

Yeah. But you have a lot of students that would count you as their mentor. JB: JB:

Derek, I'm trying to understand the question.

Yeah. And they write too. DD:

[Laughter.]

Ricky is one of the finest magicians on earth and knows more about magic than

just about anyone. He's had a lot of teachers. But he has no traditional students the way you have students.

GK:

Do they copy you, or do you mind that at all? JB: JB:

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Well, I think there's always that temptation for one w riter to say, well, this

artist is not entirely original. There's elements of this artist and that artist.

DD:

So there is a perception of the end of a line, of a lineage of teaching thatterm inates

with Ricky. RJ:

But what about your students themselves? RJ:

GK:

Well, what you said before is even more poignant, not giving back. I must

Ricky, you had talked earlier about being a role model and that just living an exem­

say Г т uncomfortable w ith that, because I think I do give back by w riting. IVe

plary life is, in the world of magic, one of the best things you can do. You are indeed an icon

w ritten many books. But I don’t w rite books of how to do tricks, because I don’t

and an inspiration for how one should conduct themselves as a magician.

think that’s the essence of the art. I’m not interested in that. And I’m not a good teacher. Г т still a student. But, yeah, I find it somewhat odd that people who've

be a paint salesman and just give paint away. So that makes a lot of sense.

CQ

You can't hope to be an icon or an inspiration. You can only hope to do

made much less in terms of contributions would be judging that.

good work, because— DD: JB:

Well, I had one student say the way I taught was, as I was always exhibit­

ing in Europe, I would come back into the classroom w ith a suitcase full of

Of course, that makes perfect sense. Especially when you frame what the actual

catalogues of European exhibitions. And so I taught by passing on traditions. RJ: DD:

Hmm. Well, that’s pretty similar.

On the other hand, when people approach me who exhibit skill or talent

or genuine interest and m erit， I th inkth e perception that I’m slamming the door in their faces is simply wrong. DD:

Of course.

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currency of the work is, which is the work. Secrets are just paint. It’s like you don’t want to

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RJ:

GK:

The last area of discussion we have is that both practices require a leap of faith

RJ:

Well, but it s also interesting: your endpoint— — right now for you in your

and a belief system that an engagement with the audience is meaningful. And there's an

career_ is, “ I want to fool this audience.” There haven’t been so many times in my

instant social contract that happens when you're performing or when an audience member

life when that was my major objective. Td say ifs certainly different than your thing.

comes in, a mutual belief from the artist or magician with the audience member, that what

My primary objective has been to tell a story, the expression of my interest in magic

you’re going to experience is valuable and meaningful. How much do you think about the

as performed for a specific audience.

1 9 f

audience when you're making your work? DD: JB:

Not at all.

〇h, that’s interesting. Because for me, unknowingness is the space that I’m trying

to create; I like to really make work in that space. And I need to get there first. I need to get the audience to a place of absolute awe and wonder. That's the playground that I like to

See’ that’s really different. Because you can’t separate the audience 什om

work in. Anything else for me— I don't have much of a hobbyist in me for trickery. I always

the performance. Am I doing something for you here? When I appeared on the

think of your work as being very deceptive and 一 I’m not saying I find it hard to believe, but

7bn/^/7fS/?oi^when I w astw entyorw hatever itw asand it was a successful thing,

the quality of your work is so high in terms of being deceptive that it seems like you value

I immediately got offers to work all over the place in situations that I wouldn't work

blowing people’s minds more.

RJ:

in. I worked in those years with my sleeves rolled up in an informal way—that was all conscious. But it’s changed over the years too, just as I’m sure your art—well,

RJ:

I'm not sure. I know your artwork has evolved and gone into manyareas. The way

w ithout necessarily going to that level. You can achieve awe and excitement w ith­

I’ve approached what I’ve done has changed over the years as well.

out setting out specifically to deceive. It sounds almost paradoxical, but it isn't.

JB:

not trying to fool somebody. You may be absolutely fooling them within the course

Well, I value it, but you can achieve those things you were talking about

For instance, to do a gambling expose that's artfully created and presented, youYe I’m probably lying a bit when I said no, when I’m painting something am

I thinking about an audience? Come on. I’ve got to sell w ork ， don’t I?

of what you choose to do, but that’s not the essence of it. The essence of it may

[Laughter.]

sonal story about seeing someone who accom plished those feats of skill in

be to explain the difference between a card cheat and a magician, or to tell a per­ cheating. So that gets you into another issue as well. Do you want to show skill, GK:

But when youYe working with a curator presenting and organizing your show—

with the idea that showing skill is less magical than apparently doing nothing and magic happens. That opens another enormous issue, but—

JB:

I leave them alone. DD:

GK:

Really?

No. I would agree with that, because I don’t have any interest in fooling people,

because fooling implies an intellectual process. But I do have a vested interest in creating absolute awe. Fooling people is a way to awe, but that is not the goal. So I see what youYe

JB:

Yeah. Because I want to see how they understand me.

RJ:

But if they do something that displeases you, do you want to change it

saying. The gambling-demonstration example, I think people sit there in awe watching you deal out of the center of a deck or—

before the show opens?

JB:

Well, it makes me think of the whole idea of circus freaks; there you have

to get people to believe that theyYe real people, they're not freaks. JB:

I guess if something were hung wrong. I сапЧ take back the work. I did it.

RJ:

No, no, I understand [laughs].

RJ:

Well, I can speak to that, because I've collected material on an early-

eighteenth-century German magician who was twenty-nine inches tall and born with no hands orfeet; he did extraordinary drawings and amazing micro-calligraphy.

JB:

Maybe it could be hung differently. I could suggest it， but I’m not going

I just had an exhibition at the Met [l/L^o厂dp/ay: /Waff/7/as 执ус/?/лде厂’ s D厂

to go against their wishes.

the Collection o f Ricky

from

6)]. There are many people who thought that I made

DD:

That's really a huge difference. Because the older I get and the more I think about

that he thought that this was Borgesian, that I had created—

these things— part of the challenge with magic is that in the strict sense of the craft, it's purely objective. I feel the need to destroy your mind with the performance. The artistry

DD:

That's a compliment?

comes with how it's composed, what is added to or removed from it. It doesn't allow a lot of room for subjectivity, because you have to consider what the audience is thinking and

RJ:

follow those tracks. YouYe kind of a cartographer, in a sense. And that's not necessarily a

Was this real or did I make this whole thing up?

Yeah. I took it as the biggest compliment for the show and for the book.

subjective process. JB:

What’s your next book?

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this up. The reviews that I got_ Peter Schjeldahi in the Л/ei/v Vb厂Are厂 actually wrote

05

RJ；

198

I’ve actually been commissioned to write a memoir, which has made me

feel incredibly old.

TELLER

DD:

Derek DelGaudio

T:

Teller

GK:

Glenn Kaino

[Laughter] DD:

I know talking about yourself is not your favorite thing, but is w riting about your

history okay? RJ:

It's tough. There are stories you would prefer other people told [laughs]

about you that you can’t tell about yourself. Interview with Teller, W Hotel, Westwood, California, July 1,2016

DD:

Let's talk about art and magic. How are they similar and how are they different? T:

All viewers are equal before a work of art, so if the President and I are

looking at a Rembrandt, we are of the same status. That equality before art is a very striking thing — Magic is the exact same thing. Before a fine piece of magie, no person has any more status than anyone else. DD:

What is the role of art and the role of magic? T:

To me— and this might not be true for everybody 一the first job of a work

of art is to astound. If it does not astound, then anything else it might do is never going to satisfy me. Then, on top of that, it can move, it can teach; there’s all sorts of things it can do, but it must begin by astounding. I would not like [Johann Sebastian] Bach if Bach didn’t astound me. I mean Bach wrote a lot of things about stuff that I don’t give a shit about .丨 don’t give a shit about Lutheranism, but the music astounds me, so I w ill pay attention to it. And that astonishment, I think, has been exploited in various ways—for example, by the Lutheran church—that the music astounds you in a way that convinces you that the content is correct, when the content, in my opinion, is probably not correct. I don't think that looking at the world as a place where you’re supposed to suffer is a good idea; it just seems wrong to me. But listen to the Saint M atthew Passion [1727] and, for that moment, you think that's true, because you've been astounded in the right way. DD:

Do you think that there’s a distinction between art and craft, or a difference of

having an idea and being able to execute it? T: DD:

Yes, of course.

Like craft that’s done so well it transcends into art, or vice versa, do you know what

I'm saying?

daoHosao£-J91ao

T:

Yeah. It’s a continuum. We were talking in the car about Otv厂Ma97.c[..TT7e

A rt in Magic, the Theory o f Magic, the Practice o f Magic, 1911], that divides magic into false art, normal art, and high art. GK:

What's this? T:

It's a book by a couple of very influential people from the nineteenth

century, David Devant and John Nevil Maskelyne, and it's one of the first real theory

books on magic. It talks about false art. False art is where you’re just copying

DD:

A lot of potatoes.

GK:

I don4 see why doing it should disqualify you from writing about it.

somebody else; it's just an imitation. Normal art is where you're doing something like playing the blues correctly. You’re playing a nice blues song; you may even have written the nice blues song. You're working within the form, from your own point of view, but you’re not just copying something mindlessly that you don’t

T:

rd be happy to have people who just observed and commented, that

understand. Then high art is where you take some form, and you do with it some­

would be fine. They'd probably be wrong, because magic is so full of inviting ideas

thing highly original that elevates the audience. Normal art is not to be sniffed at.

that are wrong, that sound so good. I mean, that whole school of mystical stuff in

We need normal art. We need elevator music. We need music at the bar. We need

connection with magic. Magic is nota very good vehicle for mystical stuff, because

to sing “ Happy Birthday” at birthday parties. That’s all normal art. But we also really

magic is all about the difference between what you see and what you don’t. It’s all

need the high art.

about looking at something and going, ‘T hat doesn’t seem possible, but it’s happening.” That’s a fundamental part of magie, and you can’t really ask an audience

GK:

That's great.

to sit back and give up their critical faculties. They can't do it. People pretend they can, and the result is there are performers who tell endlessly long-winded stories

T:

It’s a good book. It has merit in— — who's that mechanistic guy who wrote

about mystical things in mystical terms, and play the drums, or whatever. And

a lot of books?

they're never really going to be able to be taken seriously by the public. It sounds

Dariel Fitzkee, who was the worst.

absence of performing experience.

great, in theory, but I don't th inkth at pure theory on magic is all that helpful in the DD:

T: DD:

Fitzkee— he was almost trying to provide a recipe for false art.

DD:

You were saying the foundation is truth—

Fitzkee is like Robert McKee, who does seminars on film w riting— —

T:

T:

Robert McKee and Dariel Fitzkee both look at existing works of art and

that magic is about a fundamental conflict between what you see and what you

pull out the mechanistic elements and say, “ If you put those all together into some-

know. Ifs about cognitive dissonance. \X's about that double vision. Where some­

Well, Penn’s version of what I just said is, “The subject of magic is the

truth. What is the truth in any given situation?" That's a very fruitful subject. I say

thing, you w ill have something successful." So for Fitzkee, what makes a good

body like Shakespeare beats his brains out to make you aware that youYe sitting

show? Youth, coordinated movement, bright colors. And there's very little in

in a theater watching a show— he*ll have the players come on stage in Hamlet, and

Fitzkee that isn't all about false art. Mind you, it's not bad to know about any of that

he’ll have Hamlet give them advice about how to act, which is so hilariously funny.

stuff. But Robert McKee knows nothing about storytelling. What great work has

That is to remind you that you're watching a show. Magic does that with any given

Robert McKee written, huh? Anything? No, because he’s got nothing to say. He’s

moment, because magic—you can't watch magic passively. It does not wash over

talking about how to say what people have said before. Could he have written

you. You watch it一 “Wait, that’s wrong. What's wrong with that? How do I know it?” So I like the idea of the collision of what you see and what you know; I think that

Psycho [1960]? No, I don't think so.

the colliding of those tw o things is what is the signal element of magic. DD:

I can’t speak to this on the art side, but I’ve found that there are people who perform

and write about magic that probably shouldn't perform, but their w riting is actually quite

DD:

good. And vice versa sometimes, where maybe they don't w rite very well, or theyYe not

how that might be done, and they all might have a different idea. You might perform in a

Why doyou like it? I think I like the idea that you're provoking people to thinkabout

good at theorizing, but they’re excellent at performing. There’s no distinction in magic;

room of a thousand people, and the people might have a thousand different ideas of how

there’s no curators. There’s no critical class. Do you think there’s room for that, or should

that's done, provoked from this one little gap that youVe created.

there be room for that? T: T:

Sure. There's always room for that. There's room for everything. It's art,

I was also comparing it. I believe that a work of art on a wall— — if it does

not mystify, it failed. The mystification, astonishment at something, this fundamen­

you know? You can have whatever the hell you want.

tal thing where 'That's not nature; that's something different. Thafs not something

DD:

Do you think it's a problem that it doesn't exist?

a work of art. That’s an element, so if it has that, I can then move on to other things.

GK:

I don't know. Aren't there a lot of people who write intellectual, critical stuff about

a person could do. Ifs beyond what a person could do": that's what makes me like If it doesn't have that, I will never be interested in it. Actors who fully convey to an audience the motives of their characters fail. In real life, we never know what someone else is thinking. So an actor who lays

magic?

it all out for us is functional but never great, because a great actor will always make No. These are people who perform. It doesn’t mean they’re curators for

us go, “What’s going on in that guy’s head at any given moment?” I demand that

art. There are no real magic scholars. Bill Kalush is the closest thing— a guy who

level of mystery in any art form, and I demand it in an actor, I demand it in a film.

T:

just sits and reads and thinks about magic. He might be wrong in some areas, but

It’s one of the weak points, I think, of superhero movies, that we all know how

he just does that, and sells potatoes.

everything is done. So we're no longer really astounded. We go, <40h, wow, there

he is flying through the air.” Who gives a fuck? Because once you have those digital

DD:

transformations, you no longer know what the rules are， and so there’s no way to

the respect.

That was me. The notion is that there was not enough effort, lefs say, to expand

measure your astonishment. I'm awed by the swordfight in Robin Hood [1938] between Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone. I’m awed by that because I don't know

T:

how the fuck they’re doing it.

is a great wisdom in that. They stop thinking once a trick works; they think they're

Johnny Thompson says, “ Most magicians stop thinking too soon.” There

done with it__ That is easy to apply to almost any work of art that's really good. As with the actor who doesn't reveal his motives, magic that keeps its secret remains alive I love watching amateur magicians. There are other things they could be doing,

in a way that it doesn't when ifs fu lly understood. When I think I really understand

like killing peop 丨 e. Instead, they’re trying to make art, and even if it’s a shabby

something, then Г т done with It. I have to be able to keep turning it around. The

little bit of art th a t 丨 s not really original they’ve learned to do it, they’re trying to

place where I most explicitlythoughtabout what people were thinking from instant

create beauty. And people who are trying to create beauty are okay by me, even

to instant was on my red ball trick. There were about eight or nine months of just

if they’re crappy.

messing around with experiments, just to learn what was possible w ith it. And then when I came to construct it, I specifically and literally thought at every

DD:

I feel like there’s a conversation there. I don’t know how to start it, but—

moment, “ 〇kay， what do they think is going on right now?” Let’s let them come a

T:

ways longer， and let’s crack that. And the crackings continue: that’s part of the

little ways along there， and then let’s crack that; and let’s 丨 et them come a little Yes, there is. I mean, they’re not as okay if they’re crappy.

structure. DD:

It's an articulation, because I think both ways can get you to great art. I thinkthere

are different ways to manufacture hope and love, and they don't necessarily need to come

DD:

Penn also starts the trick by saying ， “ Here’s a trick with a piece of thread.”

from the same place. And so part of the reason that Glenn and I initially connected was it didn’t come 什om a place of “ It’s all great， and it’s all good.” It came 什om feeling our respec-

T:

tive fields are in crisis and that we can't sit idly by or be a part of these systems, even if

“This is great. It’s wonderful for anybody else’s show. We need something else to

they’re informal, based on communities or social contracts or whatever. And so a lot of the

make it ours.” I said, “Well, you know the people who enjoy this stuff most are the

work that we have generated has come 什om a place not of “ It’s all good” but ^om a place

magicians who are watching it to help me construct the routine. And they know

of “ It 丨 s not all good, and you fuckers need to get your shit together.”

there's thread there. So maybe start out by showing the thread, and then we do all

That came very late. I had constructed that whole routine, and Penn said,

of this that contradicts the existence of the thread•， ’ Well, we did some experiments T:

Sure. Once you Ve said, “ It’s all good,” then you can say, “ It’s not all good.”

with that， and it wasn’t a good idea. Eventually I said to Penn, “Well， why don’t we just say, ‘Here’s a trick that’s done with a piece of thread and a special backdrop?”

DD:

Right.

Penn says， “ 〇h ， no, no, no. All you need is， ‘Here’s a trick that’s done with a piece of thread,' because that tells them so much, and it brings them over onto our side."

T:

Once you’ve said, “ Making art is better than killing people, and bad art

I did it that way for four or five years before I sat Penn down at Starbucks

doesn’t hurt children.” As I’ve often said， and you’ll hate me for this, but in any

and said ， “There’s something missing. The ending of it is just the ball chasing me

argument between tw o people about whether a work of art is good or not, the

upstage. It's not the fulfillm ent of the promise that we made." So we spent days in

person who likes it is right.

the theater with Johnny Thompson watching us, experimenting with ways to real­ ize thatvisual attheend of it. We tried pulling atthe backdrop. We tried illuminating

DD:

I agree with that.

the thread from over the top. We tried sailing something down the thread. And then finally someone said, Hl think I've got it. Why don't you pretend to cut the

T:

Because they are the audience for which this was created.

thread?” And I said， “Why don’t we just cut the thread?” And that’s what ended up being the answer to the question that I'd been raising for five years, and never

GK:

But I think our observation when we first met was that the art world had become

knowing the answer to.

hyper-professionalized, stratified, and quantified. And the magic and nuance and subtlety СШ0Н0S 8 0 91§

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and poetics were being extracted and ignored for these other substitute values, which had

DD:

less to do with astonishment and wonder but more to do with how to create, like the other

a word that you just said because it’s an amazing place to start to talk about that. Penn told

w riter you had said, Robert McKee, how to make a good piece of art. And the art w orld’s

you "our side, it would bring the audience to our side." What is that side? How do you

normal had become that.

describe that side?

T:

Someone said to me that the world of magic was a handful of profession­

als in a sea of hobbyists.

It’s in a very similar space about knowing and not knowing. I’m going to key in on

T：

That sentence was inspired by something. We had both just read Steve

Martin's autobiography, in which he says that when he was doing his early stuff, he would throw out anything that he saw in anybody else's show. Now in our early days, we decided to do Cups and Balls with clear cups. We thought it was a

wonderful idea, because you would first watch the illusion with opaque cups,

and the not-knowing of the audience. It's like they know enough to be in on it to appreciate

then you would watch the method as the illusion was repeated with clear cups,

it, as if they were inside the club. There's a camaraderie, a generosity, a hopefulness

and it would be like tw o-part counterpoint. You'd be watching those two things

there: that is a different access point than the subordinate “ Please show me something

happening at the same time. We thought that if you were moving at a sufficiently

amazing.”

rapid speed, the audience would be astounded by the interaction, much like you T:

are by counterpoint.

We may be the only people who have ever articulated that everybody in

the audience knows about magic. Not a lot, but almost everybody's had a magic

But you can’t say that to an audience, right? You can’t say, “Oh, look at the lovely counterpoint between what you see and what you now understand." So we

kit. Everybody's read a biography of Houdini. Everybody knows a certain amount

came up with the notion of how this was an expose of how Cups and Balls was

about magie. Magicians come out w ith the attitude that they’re performing for

done. And we thought it would be really funny to say that magicians were upset

benighted savages. So any magician who brings out the linking rings is bringing

by this. No one was actually upset, but we thought it would be funny to say that.

out the linking rings for people w ho’ve had them in a magic set. That’s a fabulous

Well, it got back to the Magic Castle that we were explaining how Cups and Balls

universal. All of the arts strive for universals, and this wonderful thing that our

was done. And some magicians went crazy. They got very upset over this. One of

culture has given us, the shared commonality of knowing a little bit about magic,

these guys was Ricki Dunn, a cruise-ship pickpocket magician; he came to the

is a marvelous universal. We are among the only people who exploit this to its full

show, and he actually took a swing at Penn in the lobby.

potential. And we strive to exploit this all the time; we think about it a tremendous amount, that people know magic.

DD:

What? GK: T:

Penn said, "Calm down. We gotta just go out and talk about it.'1[Laughter.]

Yeah, ifs really interesting, because everyone has had a watercolor kit, right?They

still g o to museums.

So we met at Musso and Frank's, and Ricki said to us, "The question is, whose side T:

are you on, anyway?" And that is a very widespread idea in magic that I don4think

Yeah. If they’ve done watercolor in any primitive way，when they see how

you’ll find very often in the other arts. I don't think you’ll find an us-versus-them

somebody can make that flow and make it look like light, they are more astounded

sensibility in rock-and-roll much of the time. But in magic it is very common. Of

than I am.

course it’s there; there is a conflict. You are, “At your behest, audience member, I DD:

Exactly.

GK:

Why don’t magicians understand that?

cians who condescend to them, because they couldn't figure out a trick. So it has

DD:

The answer is the social currency of secrecy and the self-worth that you apply to

always been our policy to acknowledge that, and to present a peace offering to

it. If your value system becomes solely about "This is my secret, nobody else's," then you're

the audiences that have been insulted by that alienation that magicians have so

going protect it the way一

am trying to put one over on you. YouVe asked me to do this." I think some magi­ cians forget that there^s this fundamental step where you Ve said, 'Please do this for me, as a service for me.M,The result is there is an us-and-them thing that is now built into audiences, where audiences have been insulted and mistreated by magi­

often inflicted upon them. T:

The peace offering of Cups and Balls is one; the peace offering of Looks

But you do that in the arts. You know, I did Tim's Vermeer [2013]. When

Simple is another. Another thing is the entire television series B ullshit!... The real

artists had guilds during the Middle Ages, their individual skills were referred

subject of Looks Simple is the question, "What if the entire world around you, all

to as “their mystery.” You don’t give out your trade secrets. You don’t tell how you

the most ordinary things, were all magic tricks being done to simulate common­

do your plumbing. That’s your proprietary information. That’s the same kind of

place reality?" This is a delicious, delicious idea. Magicians should look at that

information th a t’s preserved very carefully in the formula for Coca-Cola and

trick and say, “Ooh, I could do another version of that,” and they’d be right, they

programming.

should do it. They should rip us off in this fundamental idea if they can think of something as clever and right as Looks Simple.

GK:

You and Penn have figured out a way to make secrecy inclusive. That’s amazing

because no one really does that. That's not a thing people do.

dao§ о о

It is one element of what we do. Ifs sort of like saying, "Good evening. We

When you start talking about the us-and-them, I think it's really interesting because

know you’re an educated person. Come in and sit down. Yes, we do have some

you and Penn create a third space, because there certainly is “the power of the magician”

things in common. Now here's some stuff that you might not knowabout." So you

and the social contract of the audience that's so imbalanced by nature of the agreement.

do them a courtesy, an invitation to say, “We know you know something.”

GK:

Like, as an audience member, I need to know less because the unraveling of a secret is what I’m there for. I’m there to see something that I don’t know, or to be deceived in

DD:

Respect. You're giving them respect.

that way.

—

But I keep on thinking when you said "our side” that you were talking— — it felt to me like a club, where you guys are creating a space in between the all-knowing of the magician

T:

The respect that they fully deserve.

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T:

DD:

77/77’s l/em?ee厂is a perfect example. That whole movie very much brings up the

T:

Ifs a rule that benefits from being stretched.

question “what is art ” ？Like you said， scientists can “do” it. Did you care about that at all, or were you more interested in Tim and his process?

DD:

Or to call backto a prior conversation, it's a rule that exists within good art, but not

high art. T:

It's all there. All of those levels are there. T:

DD:

Generally speaking, to make good stuff, follow the rule. To make great

things, break the rule.

You were known as the guys who would expose secrets. Do you still value secrets

in some regard? Shadows would be an example of something you protect a lot一 GK: T:

The Shadows thing， that wasn’t about the secrets. That’s the way it was

written about in so many magazines, and I was completely baffled by that.

Do you feel like there's any correlation between guarding a secret to protect that

astonishment and wonder in art? I feel like there’s a direct connection. There’s an integrity to those moments because of their ignorance about how something functions. To give or allow the viewer to get something that deprives them of the greater gift is part of the prob­

DD:

But people don’t know how that trick works. T:

DD:

T:

They don't know how the trick works, and I don't care.

You don4? I'd call bullshit on that; if someone were out there publishing how that

worked， you wouldn’t be infuriated? T:

lem with secrets.

DD:

As a rule, not explaining how magic tricks are done is part of the job.

No, you're hearing me wrong. I love the things you guys have done. Г т just talking

about the greater— T:

I w ouldn’t be pleased with that, but I’ll tell you, it never does any harm in

The job of the artist is to show the beautiful and hide the ugly.

fact to anybody. Never ever. It’s just a ridiculous thing that the Magic Castle of England will not admit Penn and Teller. DD:

DD:

T:

Is that true? T:

Yes. Hallowed place. They will not admit Penn and Teller because they

feel their membership would rise up in anger over us exposing secrets.

That’s an interesting rule.

DD:

The best magic secrets are ugly.

Not in this show. [Laughter.] The secrets are so good, so beautiful, the secrets are

fucking staggering. To me that’s where poetry is created, when the secrets are even more, in some ways, beautiful than the effect. And the effect is pretty fucking good. That sacrifice

DD:

But that's an interesting point. You guys are educated, and you understand how

is where some of the invisible poetics lie， because it’s the depth, you know? There’s so

you’re positioning the w ork， so isn’t that a matter of which secrets you let out? Presumably

much more there that you're choosing not to reveal. Like an actor not revealing all of his

there are secrets that completely destroy the ability to see the work for what it should be,

emotions.

if the secret is known. Or do you feel like it doesn’t matter? T:

T: So you’re depriving the audience of a lot of pleasure. Is that what you’re saying?

If you work hard enough and look hard enough, you can pretty much

figure out the secret to any magic thing. You can just search the internet. It’s really hard to say, because I used to think there was more validity to that than I do now.

DD:

No. I am depriving them of knowledge fora greater pleasure. I thinkthat knowledge

and wonder and astonishment don't have to be connected. I think the viewer using the DD:

Is it possible it’s because of status? Your commerce is based on trade secrets,

knowledge they have to give to them that moment is important, but I think there’s a tipping

literally, but there’s a point where that becomes less relevant because of your name, your

point where knowledge then starts to eat into poetics, starts to eat into a space of wonder,

brand.

space of astonishment, and space of uncertainty. T:

When you’re in the theater, you’re not bringing in a lot of the information

T:

But wait. There is a kind of pleasure and joy that you get from knowing

c m o H o 8поол-б-ЈЛО 3HJL

the secrets in your show.

that you have in your head. It shocks me how much you can know and then, when you watch the performance, forget. As an artistic rule， keeping magic’s secrets from spectators is a good idea, because it allows them the dramatic experience of seeing and not understand­

DD:

ing, which is part of what the experience is. Ifs a rule in the same way that you should not

secrets. I w ork at protecting the things weVe built. It's about preservation of the thing that

One hundred percent， but it’s actually a burden; it sucks to have to protect those

use parallel fifths. You should not give a vocalist a tri-tone skiff. If you're playing tonal music,

you’ve made, and that is important. I think if you crafted something you’re proud of, that

you should land with the dominant and then the tonic. You should do all of those things.

says something and is specific; I don’t want to ruin that by making it about a secret. It’s a case-by-case situation. But specifically, there are things that we need to protect, the knowl­

DD:

So it’s a rule meant to be broken—

edge of this changes what this is.

T:

that’s ultimately very simple and misdirected bythe beauty of the idea. The beauty

Yeah, I think it's interesting. For the Linking Rings or the Invisible Deck,

everyone who does those pieces in their routine, there has to be a forced cama­

of the idea dominates so much that the secret must be cool， but it’s not cool ， it’s

raderie with everyone else doing those pieces, right? Because if someone screws

just being done the way it has to be done.

that up and exposes how that works, it’s a one-way path of exposure. So there’s a responsibility in that way, unlike in this show, where we started with the experience

DD:

I guess we*re saying the same thing from different ends of the spectrum. The

that we wanted the viewer to feel and crafted a spectacle with that feeling, but not

beauty comes in the sim plicity of the actual intent, like Shadows.

really trading on existing secrets in that way. GK: GK:

Right. It's about making sure that the ideas represented are legible and close to

what we envisioned. Part of the sacrifice or half the problem is worrying about the secrets,

The fact that you guys are coming at it from different angles is what is exciting to

me」 think the fact that you appreciate the mechanics of that secret, and he thinks it’s shma: th afs awesome. One man's shma is another man's cool. [Laughs.]

which matter to people. DD:

Totally.That goes backtoyou being optimistic, and mefightingfrom a placeof crisis—

deals, bottom deals, and shit in the shows. I don?t have any problem with exposing things at all. People may say， “You shouldn’t give away secrets” or “ It’s okay,” but there’s no real

GK:

But that's a reversal.

discourse about what it means to have a secret and to give a secret.

DD:

No, I think most magicians don4 value the secrets they carry or have.

GK:

I'mthinking it'sa reversal in hope, then, because you thinkthatthat's beautifuland

DD:

I don’t really care about the secrets in that regard. I expose center deals, second

T:

You’re always finding your way. T_ S. Eliot says something like, “Old men

ought to be explorers." You have words only for the thoughts that you no longer

hopeful， as do I， and the crew boss thinks it’s shma.

wish to express, or the ways that you no longer wish to express them. So every Well,丨 have an article in our current program called “ I love the stuff you

attempt is a new beginning, and a new raid on the inarticulate. So I don’t know if

T:

w e’ve learned anything, because it’s moving target. I love your swagger about

never see." I love it all. I love that shma. I do not think it's beautiful, per se.

secrets in your show. What just came out of you is a very interesting idea that in some future show, you may want to explore.

DD:

I think what it can create is beautiful. The secrets are almost never beautiful, but

they can be— DD:

Which one? GK: T:

DD:

Let's talk about beauty.

The idea that these secrets are very cool. That is a very interesting idea

that I've never heard anyone of your level of ironic understanding express before.

T:

It’s a beautiful， important idea that crosses everybody’s mind all the time: what if

cool? If you didn't know how the Linking Rings worked and then somebody

the secrets were really good?

explained it to you, would you say, “That’s so fucking cool”?

They have to be good, though, or ifs just bullshit. What is a secret w orth keep­

DD:

Let’stalkabout a trick we all knowabout. Is the secretto the Linking Rings

N 0 , it’s what you do with it.

ing?一 I guess that really is the question. How can a secret be a good thing, not necessarily a negative thing? Because usually there are negative connotations that go with secrecy.

T:

But there are some secrets that have the potential to create something beautiful.

is that when you see a bunch of objects that appear to be identical, you assume

See, I would say the secret to the Linking Rings is cool, because the secret

that they are identical. That is a very fundamental brain process. It’s like M iser’s Yeah, but I’m talking about a topic for you to think about: your pleasure

Dream: every tim e you see a coin produced, you figure it’s being produced the

in a great secret. That is a very interesting idea that comes right out of your id, you

same way, but that thing's being switched up constantly. The idea that there are

know? I don't know where that would lead you, but it feels—

rings that you can visibly link and rings that are prelinked, and that those slide

Or when Gaetan Bloom does a thing and then explains it, or Tommy Wonder

cool. But in the David P. Abbott book, you read his routine w ith the thirteen or

explains how he does everything he’s ever done? And those are cool fucking secrets! It’s

fourteen rings, and you imagine being in his parlor handling these rings and watch­

T:

by you in an im perceptible way in an artful performance, seems profoundly DD:

ing them link and unlink; the experience must have been breathtaking. Or when you read about Ching Ling Foo having all his rings passed out separately among

T:

Well, that to me makes them ugly. I like my beauty simple. When some­

thing is very complicated ... like the Bullet Catch, the Bullet Catch is nothing but

the audience and then brought up on stage, and then doing all of that stuff with them —

ugliness. It's something Robby Libenar, our form er director of covert activities,

At the same tim e it’s hideously ugly， because the idea of rings melting

now our crew boss, calls a shma. Shma is crucial knitting, doing vast amounts of

through one another is so beautiful and so simple, that the idea of accomplishing

work that the audience is unaware of in order to create a very simple effect. It's

that by conflating several processes 一 it's so low, ifs so hideous, ifs so awful.

hideous. Shadows is ugly as shit; the method is shma. It’s a lot of little fussy bullshit

And ifs so cool, if you took a fresh look at it. I have proposed that we order an

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like, "Jesus Christ, this guy put so much thought into this."

international ban on the Linking Rings for the next twenty years, so that we have a chance to rediscover how cool it is.

DD: That makes perfect sense to me. I guess I think that it’s irrelevant what the secret is. It can be a fake method; it's just as bad. Giving away the fake method so they think th a fs how it’s done is the same as giving away how it’s really done.

DD:

Yeah, the symphony of the rings and things like that are beautiful, but I don't think

that's the secret. I guess I look at the secret as the hole in the ring, and everything on top

T:

Yes.

of that is the craft or artistry of the performer. The secret is a thing you could literally set in the corner; ifs a ring with a gap in it. And then everything from that point on is the artistry

DD:

that the magician brings to those rings.

and simple secret. But I think that if sharing a secret destroys Shadows, I think there’s a correlation there.

T:

And so to me, there’s no difference between a really cool secret and a really ugly

But th a fs only a fragment of the secret of the Linking Rings. You know

the real secret is that repetition doesn't have to be done by the same method.

T:

That’s a profound secret.

you don't get roses, shadows, daggers, and blood in tw o minutes of theater in

Yeah, using your knowledge against you.

that would get essentially how the trick was done.

That particular piece is odd, because it contains such romantic images;

almost anything. Anyone who applied ten seconds of pure, intellectual thought to DD:

T:

DD:

Using what human beings are good at, which is pattern recognition,

DD:

I d o n ^th in k th a t^tru e . In fact, I know th a fs not true. I know really smart magicians

against them. I think it’s fascinating. And it’s hideous, and it’s ugly, and we hide it

who don't know how that tric e s done. That mystery is super compelling forthem , but it also

for good and sufficient reason. It’s an interesting topic for you.

allows them to enjoy the piece the way it's intended.

Secrecy?

T:

But I guess what I’m saying is the reason that they’re not thinking of how

it’s done is because the effect speaks so profoundly to their own experience. That’s T:

DD:

Yeah. Your demeanor changes when we talk about it. You seem irritated,

w hat’s actually fooling them; it’s not the m ethod It’s this deep, deep meaning of

proud, swaggering, and slightly apologetic. All that means is that it means a great

this deep, deep sense of causality that is irresistible. I mean when Г т doing it, I

deal to you and should be the subject for a show.

know how the trick is done, and I often get chills because the experience of doing

Where I get worked up is, I don’t necessarily believe what you’re saying. From the

it is so much like the way primeval people think. So it isn’t the method that’s fooling them; it's the effect.

work that you’ve done ,丨 think there’s some contradictory actions and statements in that. I thinkthat Shadows has been a value-protected secret, despite how ugly it is. I don't believe that that trick is as beautiful and poetic and meaningful if you handed the viewer how that

GK: I remember first seeing the hole in the Linking Rings and going, “That’s it?” And then watching someone skillful like Shoot Ogawa do it. Shoot said something interesting

worked before they walked in the door. I don't buy that.

to me: “ Don’t look at the hole too much, even though you’re performing it, because you’re going to know more that the hole is there.’’ So when I perform it, I don’t look at the hole at all.

T:

No. What I’m saying is you could do Shadows by other means than the

ones I use. DD:

Oh, I'm sure, but that's irrelevant, too.

There’s no small secret. That’s the thing that I think I’m really compelled by. It’s like the secret has tw o faces: the knowledge that the secret exists, and then the secret knowledge itself. And the knowledge that the secret exists is the effect; it’s what you see, it's the beauty, in one respect. And then there's this infinitely deep but also super shallow possibility of what that secret could be, all at the same time.

T:

It is irrelevant? One of the great, abiding irritations on that whole Shadows

[copyright infringem ent lawsuit] experience was that almost every article that

T: So if we take the idea that the secret of the linking rings is the hole, we are looking at it from the ugly point of view.

came out said this was about protecting the secret of the trick. DD:

It was protecting the piece.

d§

T:

It’s protecting the effect. It’s protecting what the audience sees, not what

Yeah. T:

they don't see. We were dealing w ith a person who had reproduced a portion of

If, however, we add the worst term in magic— “ m isdirection”一 a good

HO

magic trick is always done by means of two tricks, at least: the trick that accom­ plishes the effect, and the trick that hides the trick. So if youYe going float a

makes no difference.

lady, you put a fo rklift onstage w ith a bar behind it. But there's a second trick, which is the ring that passes over her. That second trick hides the first trick.

DD:

Agreed.

The second trick that hides the first trick is the misdirection. That's my definition of misdirection. So there’s two commodities w e’re talking about. We’re talking about the

idea of the trick, and we’re talking about how it’s accomplished. That’s what I mean.

DD:

Oh, interesting.

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the effect by a completely different method. In that situation, to an audience, it

T:

niiiiiiiiiiii

DD:

T:

Ifs a terrible word, because first of all, it postulates an oppositional rela­

DD:

You think it forces the audience to bring more to the performance?

213

tionship, saying that what you're trying to do is make them look in the wrong place. No 一you are trying to make them look in the right place, that is the whole point of

T:

the activity. To us, to the people who make art— misdirection is gorgeous. It’s

becomes minimal. If nothing is happening, and then you turn and look at some­

fascinating. It is the secret part of art that gives us a pleasure that the audience

thing, it's huge. Richard Burton used to ta lka bo u tth e power of stillness. If you see

w ill never be able to have, because we know its power, and we admire its

any of his work you,ll see that one of the things he does is he will just freeze and

ingenuity.

Ifs partly that. Very contrary to what you think with stylized mime, it also

hold. And there's this power that comes from there. You see it in Buster Keaton. The Smothers Brothers said to us once, "You guys knew from the very start what we only discovered after performing twenty or thirty years together, which is if one guy talks a lot and the other guy is silent， the audience thinks the other guy’s

GK:

We did a video of a Linking Rings routine. I had someone else perform it and I was

thinking.” It puts them inside of you__

shooting it; he was dressed in black, and I chroma-keyed him out later. This became a film

You look at magic shows where they play loud popular music in order to

[The Linking Rings] that's now in the collection of the Orange County Museum of Art. The

influence your emotions: Г т floating a lady in the air, so Г11 play "The Raiders of

film shows these beautiful circles, with no magician attached. It's basically like a moving

the Lost Ark” so you’ll feel like you’re having an adventure. Fuck that shit. That just

Venn diagram, where the spaces in between sort of work.

seems the worst kind of cheating.

DD:

Do you guys think of yourselves as artists? T:

DD:

You mean, like, with an e at the end of the word, like artiste?

Yeah. I know you guys make movies about artists, and I think you guys are. How

do you guys feel about performing to the public in the way you do, given the substantial nature of the work that you are actually performing? What does that mean to you? T:

DD:

Oh, one last question. T:

DD:

WeVe tried in vain to sell out! [Laughter.] Ifs not something we're good at.

Yeah.

Your silence on stage. That’s a choice? T:

Yeah. Ifs been a very interesting experience. It began as a rebellion

against patter, because I felt that almost all patter was redundant. Patter was tell­ ing you what to think instead of presenting you with information and allowing you to create the story. Most magic patter is, "I am holding here a key card. Г т going to place that into my left hand, and now this will happen." It was expository about something that has already been exposed. [Laughter.] So it began in that vein. I am borderline obsessed with elegance, simplicity, and plot. For example, you will rarely find me at a concert that has more than five people involved in performing. a lot of saints on a ceiling, I don4 care. I want simple, I want small. I want one per­ son, one idea, a conversation between two or three people. I like simplicity. So anyway, I come in w ith this idea that I love starkness. Don't give me a large Broadway musical. What you start to understand, after youVe done silence a long time, is that when you take words away, there is a kind of intimacy that is forced upon the viewer. They're looking at you, you're looking at them, and everyone is

—

unprotected by words, and the intimacy is astounding, and very strong, and very sexy to me.

3 1

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Ideally, Г т listening to a solo pianist, three people in a jazz trio. You paint

1 4

DAVID BLAINE

DD:

Derek DelGaudio

DD:

DB:

David Blaine

buried alive, like H oudini...

GK:

Glenn Kaino

AB:

A.Bandit

That was the first tim e that had been done like that— — because people had been

DB:

1 5

I think it was the first real one, maybe. I mean, the first real one that was

done on purpose … DD:

People have died and were buried? DB:

Yeah, people that were thought dead but weren’t really, and they were

brought up banging on the box! Interview with David Blaine, Blaine residence, Los Angeles, March 9,2016

GK: DD:

Do you consider that a magic trick?

Lefs start with a generic question. Why magic?Out of all th ething sth at you could DB:

do, why magic?

It’s hard to explain. Well, I guess it’s not hard to explain to you guys. I’ve

been working on the perfect shuffle for ten years now. Whenever I hit it, it feels to I think it was just because I started so young. I became absorbed in that

me like a magic trick. Nobody that ever sees it would think ifs a magic trick, but

world at the age of four. It was a deck of cards— it was that simple. It was a deck

to me itfeels magical because it’s something that I know is almost impossible, but

of cards and the fact that I was born with my feet turned in, so I was not as physi­

not really. So it's like that_ it seems impossible, but no, it’s very possible. And I

cally capable as the other kids. I would do things to compete with them physically,

think anybody could do it.

DB:

but odd things that they weren't good at. Like, I'd hold my breath under water for as long as I could while they were swimming laps. So those two things I ended up

GK:

I think a lot of what we're interested in and what weVe talked about, and I think

combining, I guess. But also magic, it's not just a digital fixation, although that is

you have expressed it in your practice, is this notion that there's an action that you per­

part of it, it's almost like a meditation— — using cards that flow through your hands.

form 一 it’s something that in one way is contextualized as magie, and in another way it’s

But the other part of it is logic, science, math, psychology, chess 一 everything

contextualized as a type of art. The world sees it in a different way. It's interesting that people

applied.

say, “ David Blaine is a magician— he buried himself alive for several days.” They correlate that with a magic trick, so it raises this notion that that could be an illusion and maybe you

DD:

And why do you think you gravitated toward the real or toward blurring the line of

didn't do it, when in fact you fought hard to actually do it.

the real versus doing just tricks? DB: DB:

I grew up studying Marina Abramovic and Chris Burden. There were a lot

of performance artists I was obsessed with, and then also guys like Houdini who

Why did I like to do things that are real?

to me were doing similarthings. He was doing performance art— he would dangle GK:

off of a building— but because he was presenting it in a big way, people didn't look

You grew up with cards and thinking of magic as an illusion. When did you have

at it as art, they looked at it as magic. But really, ifs not a magic trick—the guy is

the idea of creating a tension between the real and the illusory?

dangling upside down off of a building in a straitjacket, struggling to escape. To DB:

me it was just a beautiful image, which therefore put it in the same category as art.

I think that part of it came from just watching people respond to things.

As you know, you can do a one-handed shuffle and get people to react. Or when I

I th ink the advantage I had back then was very few people knew who they

would hold my breath fora long period of time, I'd come up purple and almost black

[Abramovic and Burden] were. I think part of the allure was the question mark. Because if you know

out, but everyone would go crazy. I'd swim seven laps under a pool, to the point of

somebody is climbing M ount Everest, you just accept, okay, this is a mountain

blacking out, and then get that response.

climber, hefs gonna climb it. But if I was gonna climb Mount Everest, people would DD:

say, “What’s the trick?” Which makes it more a topic of conversation, is he climbing

Didn’t you also adopt the position— speaking about Buried Alive, for example,

which was your first stunt 一 of insisting on being in it for real?

it or is he not? It’s that question that made it into something that you could play

DB:

say， “That’s not art, it’s mainstream.1’

It wasn’t just discussed— it was an argument with Bill Kalush. He said,

“Yeah, you should do Buried Alive. We’ll dig a hole in Central Park, put you in there in front of everybody, and you sneak out, come back a month later/* I said, "well,

GK:

So that was a conscious decision?

that sounds boring, they w on't believe it if they сапЧ see it." So I said I should bury myself in a see-through coffin underwater, so you can see that Г т buried under­

DB:

neath and know that I'm there the whole time. We fought about that.

that were interesting to me in a visual way. So even the concept of the first magic

It wasn’t a conscious decision at all. I think ultimately I looked at things

show I did, it was, "How do you make it visually work?" And the way you do that is you capture people's expressions, you know?

3NIV13 9луа

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out but at the same tim e that took it out of the art world. It brought the art world to

1 6

DD:

because your body is breaking down internal organs to get what the brain needs.

Does it bother you that there’s a difference, if they categorize what you do as magie

1 7

Sure enough, on day thirty, I started to have sweet, pear-like tastes in my mouth.

or performance art?

So Г т drinking the water and it tastes like sugar water, and I was sure that the DB:

GK:

people who backed the project didn’t want the stunt to end so they were spiking

No, ГН tell you the reason why. It would be hypocritical if it did, because

if I saw a magician go out and do something， whether it’s drop out of an airplane

my water with sugar so I would make it to the end because I was going into mild

in a box or dangle up, I’m saying ， “w hat’s the trick?” I don’t believe it， because I’m

organ failure. I would pour the water down to people below, to have strangers taste

the first skeptic out there. I’m always trying to figure out what’s behind everything.

it. But it was just water. Even me doing it on my own, I still didn4 believe it was

So for people to get upset that people are looking at my things and saying, HWell,

possible. How could I expect anybody else to believe it? Which is why the New

w hat’s the trick? I f s a hologram, or he’s not really there, or he’s not really doing it,

England Journal o f M edicine documenting it and publishing a piece on it and

or how is he doing it?”— — that's part of the territory.

things like that were valuable to me.

Because you designed that into how the audience will receive it? DB:

GK:

What are your thoughts on risk? I ask that because you engage in major risk. DB:

It wasn’t even designed. It was just something that just felt right. But it’s

Risk for me is everything. Risk and failure are my two favorite things, and

success is not.

funny, because it has created a lot of confusion and anger. For example, in London, when I did the box [trapped in a Plexiglas box suspended near the Tower Bridge, without food，for over six weeks], the media couldn’t piece it together. So it wasn’t,

GK:

Because for most of your work you can't even see how successful you are.

“ Here is an endurance guy doing an endurance feat.” It was, “ Here is a magician duping us. But how is he duping us, he's just in the empty box and we сапЧ see

DB:

Success is the ultimate failure, because then you're done. Ifs the target

anything?"

and the aim and the struggle: that’s the whole—th a t’s life. Success is ju s t the bullshit. It,s the struggle that’s everything—the battle.

GK:

That’s interesting. In the Marina movie [Мап.ла

厂 a/77〇w’d- 77?e/А厂 f/sf /s

(2012)]， there’s the scene with the gallerist— it’s not even the scene w ith you and her— and

DD:

the gallerist describes you, “ He’s an illusionist and everything he does is not real， everything

I think before you, magicians would decorate the magic. They'd put jokes, they'd do tricks

you do is real," when in fact you’re doing more real things in some ways than she is doing.

and wear a jacket. You were one of the first guys to go, here, look. Do you think that was

I think you more than anyone have allowed people to put themselves in the work.

important, allowing people to engage with magic in a new way? DB:

One is not more or less. DB:

GK:

I just always imagined if a magician really existed

You know, you read

[M ikhail Bulgakov's] TT7e M asfe 厂алсУМафа 厂 /fa, you read [M ark Twain’s] 77?e

Or as real, youYe doing it for real and he made the assumption that it's not real.

Mysterious Stranger — lots of little books about magical characters. . . I'd always DB:

imagined the magician would never have a big presentation. If he could pickthings

And that’s what I’m saying. Just based on the title “magician” you have to

assume that he has a method. It's not what you see, because people know there

up and just change something into a butterfly, he would just do it. So it was kind

is no such thing as a magician, so therefore it’s a man pretending to be a magician,

of based on that. I noticed the effect was much stronger that way. That happened

which is cheating.

early on. I used to try big things, and it felt ve ry... it didn't feel honest, so I started thinking less is more.

I’ve been obsessed w ith fasting since I was eleven years old. I was obsessed with the whole concept of a fast, and I used to fast at an early age. I knew people could fast for a long period of time. I read about Bobby Sands, I read about

DD:

Yeah, definitely. There's a lot of metaphor in magic already. Like death, transfor­

so many different fasts, studied Holocaust records of people who were depleted

mation. And a lot of your work is based on life and death.

of all nutrients, just water for forty-three days and full recovery. DB:

And I still didn’t believe that people could really do that, because w e’re

Yeah.

told there’s no way you could go for a month w ithout food, w ith just water— it’s impossible. Actually no, it's not, it happens all the time. But I spoke to friends and

Producing frogs and plague— all of the stuff that's inherently in there.

had done a forty-day fast. I spoke to her in detail and still didn’t believe her. She

GK:

That's why I asked about risk, because ifs a lot of the work: that significant com ­

didn't do it in front of anybody, she just did it for herself. But my brain is trained to

ponent is invisible. Ifs such a driving, important component. It's the paradox of successful

think there’s no way somebody could live for forty days w ithout food.

magician’s work, the hard work is unseen by design.

Of course you can go into organ failure, you can die— it happens— but DB:

my brain w ouldn’t allow me to believe it. Even when I was doing the fast in London

That’s the whole thing, all of the hard work is done in the dark.

mouth starts to change in flavor after th irty days; you start to taste glycogen

DD:

Do you find yourself fighting for the credit sometimes?

asv a

in the box— — which was as real as it gets, I wasn^ drinking regular mineral water. It was pure filtered H20, with no added nutrition, minerals, zero. I had read that your

1

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DD:

I asked everybody, do you know anybody that tried? One guy had a girlfriend who

DB:

1 8

DB:

Nah， because you don’t need the credit. You put in the work and it’s

self-satisfying. DD:

Right, but this is a conversation about holding breath and doing the performance

underwater， where it’s important that the audience knows that you’re doing it for real? DB:

Yeah. But then I started to realize I could have multiple frogs come out of

1 9

my mouth— so the trick, it’s still evolving. DD:

Does it at all come from a place of wondering what the trick will do to people, or

is it only internal? DB:

No. Although to give them a good show, ifs important that they actually

It starts with what would I like to see.

are along with you, as opposed to, 4,oh, he's behind a plate of glass and he's fooling all of us”一 it’s not a good feeling.

DD:

Maybe this would be a good place to talk about the idea of social boundaries,

because you’ve had a way of traversing every race, creed, religion … DD:

So you do play to the archetype of being a magician? You understand the respon­ DB:

sibility that goes with the title? DB: DD:

Yeah. Part of your job is to be a showman. Not more than that, either.

DD:

No, other magicians don’t do it like you have. DB:

Do you believe in magic? I’ll leave that an ambiguous question.

I think all magic does that.

One of the scariest things IVe done was going to Temple, Georgia, to the

biggest neo-Nazi KKK rally of the year. Obviously Г т Jewish and dark skinned. I DB:

didn't bring security, I just brought a bearded guy with a camera, who was also

The way I believe in magic is thinking about everything that is still

unknown. To me th a fs magical. But itfs not that magic obviously does exist, or you

clearly a Jew and dark skinned. And there were feds up on the hill because the

could say that everything is magic.

year before a dark-skinned guy had driven by and was shot to death. I went there and walked up to the scariest-looking guys right away. My thinking was you shouldn't judge me by what I look like, but I also shouldn't judge you by what you look like.

GK:

These guys have SS tattoos and skinheads and swastika shirts—there

When you say youYe a showman, what do you mean by that?

are confederate flags, men on horses_ and there’s thousands of them there. It’s DB:

obvious I don't belong. So I rushed in and started doing magic forthem right away.

Bob Dylan used to say he’s just like a circus performer, basically—almost

And you could see, they're all laughing before they had a chance to hate. Because

vaudevillian. YouYe simply there to entertain.

it’s too bizarre: I didn’t come in with security, I just walked in— obviously I have to GK:

be out of my mind— so they have to give it a chance and watch. They're laughing

But the work that you do raises so many philosophical questions too. Does that

at card tricks, and it proved everything that I thought.

matter to you? DB: GK:

The way I look at it is, I just like to do things.

GK:

What was it that you thought? DB:

That’s awesome. The idea that whether it’s real or not, and whether there’s a

Then I w ent inside the huge hall. The camera guy—the footage is so

method or not, whether it is people freaking out watching you produce frogs from your

grainy because he w ouldn't even come close, he stayed on the other side of the

stomach as in your recent show, or swimming w ith sharks, or jum ping from ridiculous

street. I walked inside, and along the back wall there was a bunch of guys who

heights, your work allows people to think about the possibilities of what youYe able to do.

looked like Steve Forte, clean cut, nice looking. I was hanging out doing magic in there. And these guys liked me_ I went over to the scariest ones. All of a sudden

I've always viewed you as a guy who believed magic was real and then became a

a guy comes walking over with a gun dangling off his hip, and he's holding a bottle

magician and realized magic wasn't real but then said, fuckthat, I'm gonna make it real. You

upside down. And the guys I was with go, “You better leave quick, that’s KKK.” The

DD:

KKK guy was coming over saying, “What is this doing here?” And he was probably just gonna split my head open right there. So I just ran out, ran into the pickup truck

question, right?

and bailed.

DB:

с о

You think about something and wonder if it can be done, and then you

DD:

What was your idea, what were you trying to prove?

spend a couple of years working on how to make it happen— — it always keeps changing anyway. Like at first with the frogs, I couldn't just bring them up. The

DB:

Probably to show people that I shouldn’t judge them and they shouldn’t

concept was, what if I could just be sitting here, talking to you and hanging out,

judge me .丨 can’t judge them — I сапЧ know what made them that way, I don't know

and just have a frog appear in my mouth—that’s where it started.

their upbringing, I don't know what happened to their relatives— and they also

DD:

As one does. And then you just pursued that?

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shouldn't judge me. I th in kth a t was valuable on both sides.

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pick an impossible thing to do: if you do it, then magic must be real. But the paradox is, well, no, you can just do that. So what is impossible? YouYe resetting the line: that's the

DD:

But the spectacle allowed that to happen—the magic—

DB:

DB:

the best that I can and being happy with the end results. A lot of people are moti­

I've never really done things for credit; that was never my thing. I was

neverthe guy hanging out by the teacher looking for credit. Г т used to just doing Yeah, just walking in with a deck of cards. But it wasn't really that, because

if 丨 had walked in with a deck of cards with the wrong attitude, I’d be dead before

vated by credit, which is fine, but for me personally, no.

anything— or at least, a really bloody pulp. But it was the fact that I just did it, so it was meant to be. DD:

AB:

But then how did the evolution of that, doing it for yourself, end upon TV? DB:

Do you thinkthat could have been done with any other craft? Could you go juggling

I've been doing magic since I was a kid, for all sorts of different people.

or singing a song or playing the piano or painting, or do you thinkthere’s something inherent

When I was eighteen I was hired by Diane von Furstenberg— at the Carlisle or

in magic?

some wealthy part of New York. Her son and his group of friends, they were all screaming and running around and reacting when I performed, and I thought,

DB:

"Wow, that's a good reaction.H

I think it's magie, but done exactly that way.

Then I got locked up a few days later. I’m in central booking, which is the DD:

worst jail. You get shifted in and out with people moving in and out of Rikers, so

Which is just accessible?

it’s hardcore. These brothers were sitting in the middle playing spades and I DB:

grabbed the cards, started doing magic because I knew I was going to get the shit

No. It’s like when I go in the open water with the great white sharks. I know

that people have this sense that we can’t rationally understand— — so do animals.

kicked out of me if I didn't do something. So I started doing magic with their cards

They're very intuitive. They can feel an irregularity, so a great white w on't go after

and suddenly everybody in the cell was going crazy, and then you have the cops

a seal, even if hungry, if the seal is completely in charge. I’ve seen seals fuck with

in the cell, also reacting. I thought, wow, that's pretty amazing. When you're in

the great whites constantly and it's because they look right at the shark.

this horrible jail, this non-logical place, there's a similarity between people when you're reacting to something that doesn't make sense. So that became the con­

The shark is conservative with his energy and doesn't want to struggle.

cept for the show [Beyond Magie].

So if I come in there and I act like I know I belong there, it's too confusing. It's like the psychology of driving in NewYorkCity. Ifyou p a rkyo u rca rin fro n to f a hydrant, you’re going to get a ticket. But if you park it sticking out into the middle of the

AB:

You are responsible for a huge, positive shift in magic, in many ways.

street in front of a hydrant, you're not going to get a ticket because ifs so abstract. DB:

The person writing tickets thinks, wait a second, this person must be right around

And many that are terrible.

this car because it doesn't make sense. AB:

What do you think the repercussions are, good and bad? DB:

DD:

Basically, I take a bunch of shit and throw it against the wall. M ost of it

drops, and the shit that sticks is stuff that w ill last some time. I think that you need

What would you like to see change about magic— aside from the work you're

to keep focusing on trying to create and come up with things to inspire. Ifs tricky,

doing?

because mainstream audiences don't really know the difference, because memory DB:

is short. They don’t know the difference between somebody w ho’s a complete

rd love to be able to send people to go see a good magic show.

fraud. Butyoutry really hard to be honest and not cheat and try to make something DD:

that you think has …

And why do you think it's so hard to see a good magic show? DB:

Because the bar is set so low—the examples that exist, they haven't had

AB:

Integrity?

any real competition. The idea is to create something great that people can see and talk about, something that's not just a bunch of tricks and illusions but has

DB：

meaning at the end of the day. I thinkthere is a way to inspire and motivate people

things.

Yeah. You just have to work and focus and try to do different, interesting

to try to find something higher than just the easy fall back, just building a great AB:

w hich is w hat you’re doing, w hat Ricky Jay does, although his is a history

of different types of performative actions. It's interesting that when Chris Burden had himself

lesson—that’s amazing to m a

shot in the arm, it reverberated in the history of art in a very particular way. Knowing what we

о о

have to go through to talk about art and magie, whether w e’re talking to a curator or a bunch of magicians, it's great to hear your thoughts. For us ifs about perception and shifting it. It’s interesting, you’re doing the work for real but, with the title of magician ， you’re AB:

Are you okay w ith not getting the credit you would get if you were in a different

field at your level?

introducing the variable that it could not be real, when it's fucking scarier and riskier actually to do it for real. And it wouldn't be impressive if you were doing it for real and you weren't a magician.

l

IIIIIIIIIIIIII

We are interested in challenging the notion of what art is, and challenging the value

I

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trick and fooling everybody. If somebody puts meaning behind it or a narrative—

2

222

TONY DELAP

TD:

Tony DeLap

of it all being fake— it’s a suspension of belief; you’re doing it for real but you’re allowing the idea that maybe therefs a trick involved, because it's so illogical that you would do some­

GK:

Glenn Kaino

DD:

Derek DelGaudio

thing so insane and then not take a bow for it.

KD:

Kathy DeLap

But the idea that you so clearly have spoken about— — the complication, the potential

2;

It’s a total reversal of the suspension of disbelief. You're removing certainty. DB:

“Suspension of Belief” is a good title. It’s also SOB.

[Laughter.] Interview with Tony DeLap, DeLap residence, Laguna Beach, California, September 28, 2015

TD:

I grew up in El Cerrito near Richmond, California, across the bay from San

Francisco. I went to public schools there. It was a blue-collar town. It was quiet and comfortable until World War II started, and then it became a ship-building town. Probably hundreds of thousands of people suddenly came into the area, and the city quickly changed. I only mentioned this because it sort of changed my life. It was a sleepy community, and I knew only one magician, a banker friend of my father's. He had the Tarbell Course in Magic, the original mimeographed set. I met him when I was about fourteen， thirteen maybe. He said, “Well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll give you tw o weeks' copy at a time. When you finish the tw o weeks, bring it up and get another two.” So I did that— it drove my parents crazy, because schoolwork went out the window and I just wanted to get through the Tarbell Course of Magic. Mike to make things, and so I would occasionally make a trick or a box or something. That was my early teenage experience with magicians, but I didn’t really know any young magicians__ So I played around w ith everything, with cards and other things. I did some school shows, which maybe in a sense were okay. Then I went to juniorcollege after high school and 1continued a bit with magic, but I was getting more and more into art, which had always been an interest. I was going to night school in San Francisco to what then was a little art school, the Academy of Art, which is now the Academy of Art University, a huge mega-school. So I went there at night two days a week. The good thing to me about San Francisco in those days—this was the 1950s—there were a lot of clubs. There were some m agicians very often here and there. The Chinese Sky Room in Chinatown often had a magician. Bimbo's often had a magician. I spent tim e wan­ dering around nightclubs [laughs]. I was also going to school down the Peninsula by Palo Alto to junior col­ lege, but Td come up. Sometimes a couple of friends would come up with me. The hobby kept up.

im m m n

in 1948 or 1949 to art school. I had a friend in the film business. One day, a dear

什iend of mine, Conrad Hall，who became a very wel 卜known cinematographer, said, “hey, w e’re going to go to the Magic Castle.” I didn’t know much about that at all. We went there and that was a revelation to me. I think that was '63, right about when the Castle opened. So I spent a lot of time thinking about all that and getting interested [in magic again]. I thought, well, I could use some real, decent experience. I'll apply fo ra magician’s membership.

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But then I got more and more involved in art. I came down to Claremont

TD:

I had some slides of my work. I tookthe slides with me to the Magic Castle

Persi. He was around. I knew him a bit, but not real well. But as far as I

know he’s—

one night and [Dai] Vernon was sleeping up in the attic. He and Jay Ose were living up in the attic at that time. It was pretty much a small group of the older guys. So they said, “Well，what could we do for you?” And I said, T m here to apply. I have

DD:

The trinity of Vernon’s disciples were Persi and Ricky Jay and Steve Freeman.

some slides." So this one fellow called Vernon over and he said, HHey, Dai, do you TD:

want to look at the kid's stuff?" So I sat down and from that moment on I thought,

Yeah.

this is an okay guy. He sat and he watched these slides of mine, and he said, “That’s very

DD:

Those were the three. Then he had Bruce Cervon and [Larry] Jennings.

nice, Tony. It’s nice to see this work of yours.” He called somebody over， saying, "Let?s take this guy in as a member. It'd bring a little class to this place." [Laughs.]

TD:

My work was pretty far out for Dai at that time, but that’s how we started. That’s

bit later, but he was, according to Dai, always following him around and driving

I can4 really say I know Ricky Jay. IVe met him several times. That was a

how we became friends.

him crazy.

And so I kind of snuck in the back door as a magician member. But IVe [Laughter.]

been a member ever since. In those early years, I would go when I was still at UCI [University of California, Irvine], Td be uptown a lot. Td bring a faculty member or two or I’d see Conrad and w e’d go fool around or do things. I would always go and

DD:

How were your experiences with him in general?

see Vernon and w e’d sit and talk. I was interested in his early art trading. We just TD:

became good friends.

Well, I guess he was . . . he was just very persistent. I met Ricky I think

But the sad part for me is that I never was really close enough [to the city],

about three times, but I never spent any time with him. I just remember talking to

and I was too involved in my own work and everything. I never really took lessons

Dai about him in earlier years. So many of the rest of the gang I would meet at the

from him, which I wish I had done. I talked with him a lot, and I did an interview.

council, because in those early years they were around. That was always exciting

Did you ever see the interview?

for me. And Marc Pally...

GK:

Yes! That was one of our most exciting discoveries. That an artist conducted one

of the most important magic interviews of all time. TD:

GK:

Marc is a friend of mine. He actually showed at Rosamund Felsen too as a painter. TD:

I made the film and we shot all that material, I had it around for a number

Yes. I remember he had a show—the last show of his I saw at Rosamund

was at the same tim e I had a show shortly before Patty Faure died.

of years and never did a thing w ith it. Then one evening I was at the Castle and there was a bunch of Vernon^ magician friends and we were talking. Dai turned to me and saidT“ Hey， Tony， what did we ever do with all that film we shot?” 丨 said ，

GK:

But you showed at Patty’s before she passed away.

“ I still have it. I keep thinking we ought to try to do something with it.” Maybe it was Kathy [DeLap] who said it was my birthday. Vernon replied, "Okay. I just gave you a birthday present. Take all that tape and do whatever you want to with it." So th a t’s how that [happened]—through a fellow at [California State University] Long Beach’s video department J o e Leonardo. But it was shot by Jay McCafferty, who was an art student at Irvine. He had just recently been involved with the handheld camera. This is the early '60s. It was a nice period of time.

TD:

I showed—well, I started with Nick Wilder, which is another long story,

because I knew Nick when he was still a law student at Stanford. I was in San Francisco, because I had a number of studios there. About the time Kathy and I first knew one another, Nick was at Stanford in law school, but he was running an art gallery for Dr. [William] Fielder. Dr. Fielder was, I believe, head of surgery for Stanford White Hospital and he was interested in art. Occasionally, Nick would come by my place or Dr. Fielder would come by and say hello. A funny side story is that I had Bruce Nauman—a funny, spindly thing 一 hanging on my little funky place in San Francisco. One day Nick came by and he

GK:

That's a great story.

wanted to use the bathroom, so he went upstairs and he was there for a while. When he came back down he said, “That’s the most terrible, awful piece of art I’ve

But a lot of the guys who were around there 一 God, they're pretty much

all gone now—were in and out.

ever seen in my whole goddamn life.” I laughed and said, “Well， he’s a student of mine at UC Davis.” Then about tw o weeks later, Nick came by and he said, “You know that

GK:

The magicians, you mean?

thing that you have hanging upstairs? Is it still there?” I said, “Yeah.” He said， “Could

TD:

down. Then he said, "Can I meet that guy? That thing is off the wall." I think it was

I go see it again?” So he went up and he was there for a while and he came back Dai's great young friend, who he traveled with for a period of time, who

is now head of statistics at Stanford ...

the following Thursday, Nick went up to Davis w ith me and he met Bruce. And that's how Bruce got started, because it was just shortly after that that Nick opened

DD:

Persi [Diaconis].

his gallery in Los Angeles.

CIV13QAN01

cmo§ 8аоол.л?1 д о3H1

TD:

Then my own story is that I got involved, because I was committed to Felix

N 〇， I ve never known another artist w ho’s done magic. It’s interesting.

TD:

Landau. And when Felix closed, I went to N ick's. . . Nick called me one day and

They enjoy watching magic. But I think that one heavily involved discipline takes

said, “ I’ve always thought that you probably were the smartest guy I’ve ever known

a good part of one’s time. So 丨 always envied the purists—

but don’t you think it’s tim e to come over here now.” I said, “Yeah, I do.” So that’s

227

Have you met Penn and Teller? Do you know them at all?

how we got together. And Patty Faure worked for Nick. She ran the gallery in those years, so I

DD:

Yeah, I know them well. They’re both pleasant. Teller is really sweet. Penn is very loud.

GK:

[Laughs.]

had known her forever. Patty was a good head. GK:

So nice. She was a good spirit. TD: TD:

DD: GK:

Teller is quite a good magician ， isn’t he?

For a long time she had been a partner with Betty Asher.

Yeah.

Very, very good. He's a smart magician. I think the three best tricks being per­

formed in magic are from him on that stage. Shadows, which you've seen, I'm sure. The intersections of art and magic, do you think there are some inherent intersec­

TD:

And Betty and Mike Asher were students of mine at UCI. Everybody was

tions of the two?

a student of mine. TD:

Intersections in what way?

[Laughter.] GK: TD:

But it seemed like that. Jim Turrell was a student.

Like in your work, there are formal conversations sometimes between cards and

illusions. One thing we are interested in is a dialogue about the cross-reference of aesthet­ ics. And the only thing that weVe seen conversations about is primarily around the idea of

GK:

Chris Burden was a student of yours at Irvine, right?

illusion. But we're also interested in the notion of community and ideas and where ideas come from. So, if early on you were a student of Tarbell's and also created tricks and then

TD:

Yeah. I said to Chris one day, because it was before he had himself shot

in the arm. He spent I think six days in a little locker in my class— GK:

you ended up also creating artwork, there's a fluidity there to be able to think about magic and—

I had that locker [laughs]. That was my locker when I was at UCI.

TD:

Yeah. I think I know what you* re saying. I find that in my years, there's more

acceptability, and more possibility, for the conversation about magic as we under­ TD:

I said, "Chris, I've been thinking about your work. I think that the closest

stand it and appreciate it and know about it than earlier years.

person I can think of that does what you do is Harry Houdini” [/aug/7S]， which is really true. GK:

GK:

When did that conversation happen? Back when Chris was in grad school?

Now it’s easier? TD:

I think it is, because there's a closeness to, as you say, illusion and aspects

o f ... I don’t think there are the strong differences that there used to be. TD:

That was 7 0 ,7 2 maybe, something like that. It was an interesting period.

One reason we got a good number [of students] is because these artists thought

GK:

Would you have considered Dai Vernon an artist?

they wanted to g o to art school, but they didn't want to g o to any of the known art schools. So they took a shot at what was going on here.

TD:

Dai Vernon was an artist. He started as an artist, but I think he was an

artist at what he did as a magician. GK:

That’s very interesting. You said in the beginning of the conversation that you’ve

known a few artists who are interested in magic, but not that many. Who are the ones that

DD:

Right.

come to mind? TD: TD:

In other words, if one's playing the professional involvement of art galler­

Well, friends like Craig Kauffman and maybe John McCracken, because

ies and museums and so on, I think that you can probably take anything and make

he had been a student of mine up north. But Craig and pretty much the Ferus

art out of it. I don’t think that magic is art necessarily， because it’s magic to make

Group came around and taught here.

it more interesting or better [laughs] or something of this sort. I don't know if IVe explained myself.

Were those guys were interested in magic too? GK:

That makes sense.

dvIANOL

GK:

TD:

But I think that magic can certainly make for interesting art and maybe

TD:

has a head start with the fact that it’s about illusion.

Yeah, he brought Dai down to see that performance. We did it here at the

Orange County Art Museum when there was just the one building. I hired a guy with a crane and I hired a girl who was Farrah Fawcett's stunt double to come down and be the floating lady. We rehearsed it on a spiral staircase during the day and that worked fine. And then, at night, it was dark and we had a lot of people.

GK:

It’s interesting to hear you talk about the community part, because you’ve spoken

As I say, I asked Conrad to come down and take pictures. Conrad had

a lot about the magicians at the Castle coming to see your shows. And then you talk about

picked Vernon up at the Castle and they came down. Everybody was sitting outside

your students and the artists that you hung out with. But we really haven’t spoken about

there and it was dark. And the crane started making a hell of a noise. The lady got—

them intermingling as much. KD: TD:

And she’s draped.

Yeah. TD:

Yeah. We had a high intensity light on her. And when she got out parallel

Let me ask another question. Michael Asher, who is known for being a heavy

to the water up there, it was great. It just looked like she was floating along. Then

conceptualist, or artists of his who were students of yours, they knew that you were a

she moved slowly north and the light was killed and she dropped down. I had some

magician—

guys who rescued her there when she landed, but it was kind of terrific.

GK:

So, later one night ,丨 was at the Castle and Vernon was holding court with TD:

some of his guys and all. He said, "Oh, I went down and saw Tony do this levitation."

Oh, yes.

And he said, "You know, it was the largest, longest levitation th afs ever been done GK:

in the w orld/' [Laughs.]

So when you were talking, giving crits, and helping Michael develop his conceptual

practice, how much did— DD: TD:

It might still be true.

Did that enter in at all? TD:

GK:

And one of the magicians says， “Well, God almighty, how did he do that?”

And Vernon said, "I haven4 the slightest idea." [Laughter.] I could hear him tell

Yeah.

these guys, “ I haven’t the slightest idea how he did that.” Well, it was hysterical, TD:

because the truck is there with this noise—rah, rah, rah— right here.

Yeah. Well, most of that gang knew I was an amateur magician and I think

they were okay about that. To try to answer your question, I'm not sure I know. I think what comes up is you have a conversation and somebody will say, Hwell, you

GK:

[Laughs]

know what I’m talking about, you’re a magician.” You know what I mean? TD: GK:

Well, it was a great evening and we did have a fun time. I just bored the

Exactly. What does that mean?

hell out of Connie with all my activities. I had him come down to the studio to film

TD:

me. I still have the film. But at the end of the day, he said, 'That was the most abso­

in slow motion for some work I was doing. He spent about three hours doing it for I hear that all the time.

lutely boring afternoon I ever spent." [Laughter.] But it was sort of my whole GK:

goddamn life.

What does that mean? TD:

Well, you ought to know about what I’m talking about, you’re a magician.

And, God, it drives you fucking crazy.

DD:

Are you surprised there aren't more artists interested in magic? We've scoured

the earth for artists who are— TD:

[Laughter.]

Yeah. I think so. But as I hinted at a bit earlier, I think both disciplines are

so totally demanding. GK:

GK: TD:

That's a really good point.

Then you got the floating lady— TD:

DD:

How many hours a day do you work with cards?

Florine, Child of the Air? DD:

Zero hours. But for years, 24/7. d

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Yeah. What does that mean, Tony? [Laughs.]

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TD:

Anyway, that image— boy, it’s a great story, because I had Conrad go by v

and pick Vernon up and bring him down for that performance out of doors.

TD:

Yeah [laughs]. It's while you're doing that Г т in the studio. I l

DD:

Conrad Hall drove Dai Vernon to the performance?

DD:

Yeah. That s a good point.

DD:

TD:

to the jokes, ?cause we either hit on them first or pointed at it or something, but if they don't

No one talked about it. It was the first thing we'd done at that level that no one

3 1

talked about. Maybe it’s because we kind of took the wind out of their sails when it came So, with me, it was just the opposite. I hate the word "hobby." But, at the

same time, I'd come in from the studio and sit down and work on things and so on,

have that, they don’t really have anything to talk about.

but the discipline— it was different. TD: GK:

I have to tell you, though, who is an exception in this business with a great

But in certain circumstances, though, you made the magic your art.

name and that’s Barbara Rose, the critic in New York.

TD:

KD:

Barbara wrote Tony’s book and did the essay.

TD:

And we saw her a bit, because we were in Buffalo recently__ I did a gig

Yeah, I did. It’s true. But so much of that was decision making. It wasn’t

taking eight hours a day or—you know what I mean? GK:

Yes.

DD:

So there’s a distinction for you with the craft and the technical?

with her for a video thing that was hosted by one of the museum fellows at the Albright-Knox museum. But I do have to tell this story about the very early years, when Barbara Rose came out here to do what was called the Duchamp Festival, which was sort

TD:

DD:

But I’ve heard so many stories about, for example, card magicians: they

of her idea, I think. She took students and she took faculty and she did the Duchamp

practice eight or ten hours a day or sometimes more. Vernon told me once that

Festival, which was a big deal in those years. At that time, she was married to

there was a guy called Fluky Johnny, John Scarne. Vernon said that he was the

Frank Stella. Frank wasn’t involved in the school, because he w ouldn’t pass the

poorest card person he ever knew.

loyalty oath.

Terrible.

KD:

He wouldn’t sign it.

TD:

I don't blame him, but they've done away with that. But, anyway, Barbara

TD:

And hesaid they used to give him money to get home on the streetcar or

something.

came to the school.

Yeah.

levitated this young lady in one of the rooms at the school. And it kind of scared

That's when I— not as a joke, but just as something so very lighthearted— DD:

me, because people thought I really had levitated this person. TD:

They called him FlukyJohnny. The story goes he would just practice and

And, anyway, Barbara liked the whole magic bit. While she was here, I

practice and practice until he was raw.

brought Dai Vernon down to the graduate students for him to entertain. He just did some standard things. But Barbara was sitting as close to Vernon as we are

DD:

Yeah. He still needed more.

now and she never got over it. She never really got over watching somebody work like he did here with his standard cups and balls and cards and so on. And a time later, Barbara was up with her son, and we went to the Magic Castle. Maybe within this last year, she brought up my magic. She said, "When

DD:

Well, weVe done a lot of different things separately and weVe done a lot of things

we went to the Magic Castle with my youngest son, who was such a pain in the

together. And we find that when we were doing work together we finally got to a place where

ass,” because he was, I guess, just a young—

people stop saying jokes as much as they just stop saying anything at all. GK:

[Laughs.]

DD:

One of the shows wedid, which we were most proud of, was at The Kitchen in New

That age.

TD:

Yeah, at that age. She said, "It changed him." She writes a good bit about

magic in reference to my interests and so on. So it made a noticeable impact upon

York and it was great. We were so proud of it. It was so new. Nothing like it anywhere.

her. And as she is one of the leading contemporary critics in the country, I have to acknowledge the fact that th a fs something, you know? When she was last out,

GK:

Packed house, artists, magicians.

she and I had a conversation for the book. The magic always came up. So I don't know if that’s an exception or what, but—

DD:

Yeah, artists and magicians, everyone there loved it. Everyone said they loved it.

No one wrote about it. TD:

Yeah.

GK:

I think that we find ourselves living in a world of exceptions. KD:

Did Alex[is Smith] evertell you about the performance she and Tony did?

It was beautiful. I don4 know if we have a write-up about it anywhere. When Alex was still at UCI, I think, and a friend of Tony's was running the gallery at Caltech—

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KD:

2

2 3 :

GK:

No, she hasn’t told me about that. KD:

MARINA ABRAMOVIC

AB:

A.Bandit

MA:

Marina Abramovic

3 ;

And Michael Smith. Tony and Alex put together this evening. It was sup­

posed to be a magic evening. And they had this room — well, it was quite usual. It was a long table with beautiful glass goblets. I сапЧ remember what else there was. And there was limited seating to see this thing. People had to sign up for it. And they had a magician inside the room? TD:

Yeah, it was sort of cool. We had a room. I think this was actually more her

idea than mine, but we had a room where the people could peek in. We invited some of the artists to sit down with a magician, who was working at a table. People could

Email exchange with Marina Abramovid, July 2016

come in and they’d sort of peek through and see this going on， but they couldn't go in. AB: GK:

That’s cool， man. That’s awesome. KD:

What is your familiarity with magie performance? Do you like magic? When you

watch magic do you try and guess how the “tricks” are being done?

Yeah, it was. And people were panicked they couldn’t get in there. They

MA:

heard that everybody wanted these tickets to go. And you know how the group is.

Since my early childhood, I have loved and believed in magic. I trust it

completely, and I never want to know how it is done. I always want to believe that it is real. When witnessing a magic performance you have to go into that world and

TD:

Oh, yeah, it was a closed shop.

KD:

They couldn’t get on the list. We’d get people phoning us: "I understand

live there fo ra while. AB:

Something that is a major concern and factor for magicians is the notion of their

this is going on. Why haven’t I been invited?” And ， “well, there’s no more seats.”

work being considered service entertainment. Over the course of your career, whether

“What do you mean there’s no more seats for me?”

performing in a museum to one or thousands of people, how have you dealt with the notion

TD:

theatrical productions, when MoMA [the Museum of Modern Art, New York] has a bigger

of service entertainment? What makes your performances different from more commercial, It surprised the hell out of me.

marketing budget than small off-Broadway houses? DD:

Who was in the room? MA: TD:

We have to be clear here. We are talking about different categories. A

I forget who the magician was. We put Bob Irwin in there, and we put a

magic performance is different from performance art. It is also different from the­

couple other art people. There were probably six people at the table. And there

ater or Broadway performances. Each of these categories has a specific purpose.

was a light on so the people could walk through this door and see this going on.

I can’tta lka b o u tth e aspects of yourtrade, I can only speakabout my own category

Then there was this big room where all the peasants came [laughs].

and how I distinguish it from entertainment. First, in my work, everything is real. There is no illusion, no repetition, and no rehearsals. Most of the time, particularly

GK:

in my own work, it is of long duration, and because of that element of time, the

What was the performance called?

work becomes life itself. TD:

I think it was called "An Evening with Magic." I got a number of the guys

from the Castle. I got Earl [Nelson] to come down as kind of the kingpin. Earl sat

AB:

in a tall chair and opened a brand new deck and everybody was around and

context to raise critical questions about the social contract, which is also one of the con­

watching all this. Earl did some wonderful things. Anyway, it was really quite a

cerns of magicians like RickyJay. D oyouthinkabouttheaudiencew hen creating your work?

lovely evening. And then after all of that, Earl and maybe eight or ten of us all went up to

Your work very importantly also implicates the audience and their motivation and

Do you feel sometimes when creating a piece that you are crafting with the emotion and expectations of your viewers?

Melinda [Wortz]’s house in Pasadena and we had dinner. So it was a great evening. So these six or eight people were in the room and then everyone else slipped

through a little peephole?

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For me the audience is essential. I could never imagine a performance

without an audience because the audience completes the work. It is all about the transfer of energy. When I create a work I always have the audience in mind, but I don't think about the expectations or reactions of the viewer. I only think about

TD:

Yeah [laughs].

how I can deliver a message as best as possible. I am concerned with how to give 100% of myself to the audience, and then it is up to them how they receive this.

GK:

Can we restage that? TD:

Well, of course. Do anything you want.

My concern is with the delivery only.

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cmoHo

MA: GK:

AB:

Presence is a key concern in your work, and is required of most artwork in order

AB:

You have invested heavily in communication and outreach and really have pro-

for the impact of the artist’s vision to be communicated. We also believe that presence is a

vided an unprecedented and transformative amount of effort into the cause of teaching

requirement of magic, and that art and magic might be two of the last cultural concerns that might motivate human action. Do you agree and, if so, how do you think that the com­

performance art and encouraging m ultidisciplinary conversations. What else can and should be done by performers in all fields that might further the conversation that you have

modity of presence can be earned in a world becoming increasingly mediated?

provoked, so that we can make sure that both the pleasurable but also the critical dialogue

235

might be pushed further? MA:

I definitely see the connection between magic performance and perfor­

mance art. In both cases, being here and now is essential. And because the world

MA:

we live in right now is so distracted, we need this kind of work more than ever

performance art, but also new forms of art that will be invented in the future. From

I am very often thinking about the future of performance art. Not only

before. The public more and more needs not to look at something but to be part

my own experience, I have found long, durational forms of art to be the most trans­

of something.

formative of all. To me, this applies to any medium of art that is longer than six hours. This can apply to performance, theater, dance, film, or music. These forms

It strikes us that the transactional mediation of social platforms as a proxy to expe­

of art have the potential to be transformative experiences precisely due to the

riencing performance art changes the relationship of the work to the viewer, but it is also

amount of tim e required by the spectator. Longer works require preparation and

important to consider given the nature of marketing and communication in this age. How

investment from the audience. This commitment is essential because it increases

can art cut through all of this and connect to people w ithout diminishing its intent?

your availability to experience the work.

AB:

MA:

Social media has good sides and bad sides. The good is that it can create

a dialogue within a very large audience regardless of a member's individual space, time, or location. This is an incredibly powerful and useful tool, the potentials of which we are still discovering as we go along. Still, you can never transmit the kind of experience in this context that you can achieve in real life. Being in the here and now and participating in the work physically gives you something on a whole other level, which I doubt technology could ever match. But we cannot change the time we live in. We have to adapt to this moment in the world, while at same time not compromising too much and losing our soul. AB:

Inyourfilm [Маг/ла/А^厂 avow ’d ，

(2012)]，there was an exchange

with you and David Blaine, wherein subsequently your gallerist suggested that everything you do is real and what David does is not, that what David does is trickery in service of the idea of illusion. In fact, David does many of his performance gestures for real but chooses to apply the context of magic and artifice to them in order to raise questions about their viability and authenticity. On the opposite end of that, the most poetic gestures from artists as diverse as Juan Munoz to Doris Salcedo utilize elaborate illusions to simulate natural phenomenon, but we considerthose artworks. Do you feel thatthe possibility of “not being real" diminishes one's work, and do you feel that it is a requirement of any art for it to be done “for real” ？ MA:

I don’t th in k that reality is a requirem ent of art. There are as many

approaches to this question as there are artists. I can only speak of my own approach, which necessitates reality. I also would like to talk about my admiration for David Blaine. I know that so many of his actions are extremely real, and so many times he puts his life in danger. Intentionally, he would like the public to see this as a magic act. So many times the public is blind to the fact that certain things in magic. Hiding the pain and danger as a part of the illusion can be extremely diffi­ cult. I have never understood how he can do this. In my own work it is important to show this aspect of the experience and to show the public how vulnerable and fragile you are. They can connect with you in that way, showing them that you are not some kind of super hero.

PIAOIWHSVVNIHVS

his work are real. The reason for that is that David does things in the context of

SHOWS

SECRETS KEEPING SECRETS Glenn Kaino. LAXArt, Los Angeles, 2010

After an eighteen-month hiatus from making studio work, Kaino opened his first exhibition at LAXArt, Secrets Keeping Secrets. The show presented a sculptural record of Kaino's journey into the world of magic and was centered around the activity of the artwork Safe, particularly the process and output of his investigation into secrecy. The exhibition catalogue was never published, so here is the introduction to the book about secrets that will now forever remain a secret.

A n d anyway， the secret is n ot as im portant as the

objects and ephemera from fragments of other things,

paths that led me to i t Each person has to walk those

forging new relationships between diverse materials

paths himself.

and ideas to uncover hidden truths and meanings— illusions which suggest new possibilities.

—JORGE LUIS BORGES, “The Ethnographer”

But as the art market accelerated, wielding increasing power over the assignment of cultural value, I began to be dispirited with the role of art in

The work engaged in this book is concerned with

the w iderw orld and the opportunities in th e a rt world

redefining the role of art and the artist in a moment of

for my practice. The market value and meaning of a

crisis. The landscape looks like this: two decades of

given work seemed to be running away from each

culture wars have left artists divided among each

other, and I needed to find a new way to engage with

other and w ithin themselves. A hyper-professional­

art-making for its own sake, as a catalyst for meaning

ized creative class thrives on the corporate art world

and humanity. And so I became a magician. This book

and the quantifiable systems of validation that provide

records and re-encodes the serious training I under­

institution-level investment security. Late generation

took in the field of magic in orderto reclaim my belief

would-be conceptual art packagers have stripped all

in the occupation that I hold dear. It is a guide to a very

the magic and play from art and left it beaten and

particular and peculiar process of making moments

resigned. Basically, the shit is stagnant because it's

and meaning, encrypted within stories and illustra­

all about the money. I overheard a dealer selling an

tions that chronicle the past tw o years of my art

edition at an artfairand he sounded like a pimp hock­

practice.

ing a pair of used panties from one of the best girls.

In learning magic, I gained the ability to simul­

For years, a central part of my art practice has

taneously believe and disbelieve in w hat I do. I

been an in-depth and undercover engagement with

gained access to a form of creation that is simultane­

diverse fields of study. Hiding in plain sight within dif­

ously highly technical and incredibly mysterious.

ferent cu ltural systems, I have been a part of

Historically, magic has been used as a means of rec­

corporations, collectives, gangs, bands, and families

onciling seemingly irreconcilable gaps 一for example,

as a leader, a lieutenant, or an enthusiastic support­

between science and religion. I think magic is the key

ing collaborator. I have used these investigations to

link between art and everyday life. In magic, secrets

bring practical skills, radical perspectives, and novel

are not simply withheld information; they are truths

approaches to bear on my work 一 applying non-tradi-

that exist only within the imagination. Easily manipu­

tional vocabularies to art-making in orderto generate

lated, they have generative powers, especially in the

new models for production.

realm of performance. Becoming a magician has

Though I have had steady progress since

unlocked an entirely new conceptual and discursive

becoming an artist, evolving through varied experi­

m obility for me and has presented a new opportunity

ences and studies, my p ra ctice has rece ntly

for creative growth.

undergone a major evolution. In order to make art­

This publication documents two art projects that took place simultaneously during my investiga­ tions into magic and training as a magician. Both

ing unique things out of the disparate parts of

projects are about secrets, and both were created for

unrelated model kits. Starting with the idea of kitbash­

LAXArt in Los Angeles. The first, Safe, involves the

ing as a conceptual challenge, I engineered both

gathering, protecting, and storing of secrets from a

s i s

work, I had been primarily utilizing a strategy called "kitbashing,11which is a model-maker's term for build­

d iv e rs e a n d in te re s tin g g ro u p o f p e o p le . T h e y w e re a s k ed to c o n trib u te via th e fo llo w in g p ro cess:

1.

Take the special "secret" paper, print your

figs. 1— 4 (pp. 242—245)

An early exercise in seeing and believing. Old art-magazine ads were transformed into magic ads through the addition or redaction of language. Jeffrey Deitch later told Kaino that the Vanessa Beecroft ad (p. 242) was one of the first he ever placed for Deitch Projects, his gallery in New York.

name at the top, and write a short description or "title" of your secret, but not the actual secret itself. 2.

Record your actual secret onto a m icro­

cassette tape. 3.

Return the tape to be placed in the safe. I explained to the co ntribu to rs how th e ir

secrets would appear in this book: the slips of paper each had contributed would be scanned and repro­ duced so that their names would appear as they had been written, but th e irtitle s would be obscured by an know the owners of the secrets, but w ill not be able knowledge is left to the imagination. Having never

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listened to the cassette tape, even 丨 don’t have access

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The second project, Vanish, is a journey into the world of magic and an inventory of the new tools

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o

actually two books occupying the same set of pages.

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ered up by the text of an incriminating narrative about

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having seen the titles.

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to their secrets, though I do have some clues from

One is the secret life of your peers kept safe and cov­

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to see what sorts of secrets were contributed. That

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how one might unravel and decode a stagnant and stale relationship to find within it a magical world.

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6\1Ш WHITrWLE JW el A lth o u g h fo r m any p eop le D avid Hammons seems to have emerged from nowhere in the past two or three years to suddenly enter the front ranks o f inter­ national sculptors, such a perception is actually mired in the unfortunate s ocio­ political dynamic that tends to influence how American culture views itself. Were we to let ourselves be dominated by its influence, it w ou ld p robably be m ore accurate to write the following: t4Despite the o f^ h e A m erican art

establishment to deny the existence o f an artist like D avid H am m ons within its midst, his woric has at last been exposed to a general and highly appreciative au­ dience/* In fact, the truth lies somewhere in betw een . H a m m on s’ s art w ou ld probably have become well-known much earlier on. Instead, he chose to focus his artistic activity on the experience o f being a fully engaged African-American male at the end o f the twentieth century, with all the contradictions that this; entails.乜 « 山 is

way, Hammons more or less forced the art world to come after him, ensuring that his work would be taken on its own terms, and prompting a general re-examination o f the issues o f cultural identity in American art — the repercussions from which will still be felt for many years to come. Born in 1943 in the m edium -sized, m idwest town o f S pringfield, Illin ois, Hammons’s formative experiences were o f the slow cultural ferment that would constitute the United States in the fifties,

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EXPERIMENTS FROM THE SPACE BETWEEN A.Bandit. SoHo House, West Hollywood, 2010

A.Bandit was invited to perform at SoHo House in West Hollywood; it was th eirfirst commission. Offered

asked, What is this? Kaino explained its significance

A c t 1:

Revealing Secrets

and asked, "Why do you ask?" DelGaudio responded,

short turnaround would force them to get th eir act

Prior to the show, Kaino and DelGaudio each wrote

which Kaino replied, "What the fuck are you talking

together, to start moving from sitting in the studio

down a dozen secrets, facts so personal they hadn’t

about?”

thinking about opportunities to make work to just

shared them with one another. On stage, they cere­

getting down to working.

moniously exchange their secrets, then proceed to

a slot in only three months' time, the duo felt like the

“ Because I know the man who owns that mirror,” to

The show itselfwas a bit of a mash-up between

take turns reading them aloud, revealing the facts to

an a rtis t’s talk, a magic show, and a music video.

themselves as well as the 150 members of the audi­

The show never settled on a specific format. Rather

ence. This piece sets the tone for the trust the two had

it flu id ly weaved through genres, taking its form

in each other from the very beginning.

A c t 4:

Invisible Egg

In an act of collective hallucination, the two share a

from a conceptual direction rather than a forcing

story about an invisible egg that gets “passed” 什om

methodology.

the hands of one to the other. DelGaudio proceeds to

The show began with a series of stories about theoretical collisions that were generated during the

4 9

crack the same egg onto a pan sitting on stage and, in

A ct 2:

S tudio V isits

front of the audience, produces real scrambled eggs.

collaborative explorations of the worlds of magic and art that the two discovered, but it quickly transformed

The two performers quickly exchange a short studio-

into a journey through a rich theoretical playground

visit talk describing the nature of their past work and

that DelGaudio and Kaino unlocked together as they

their meeting, and the synergy that led to the creation

moved away from the trad ition s of each other's

of Kaino^ piece The Grand Finale (see pp. 142-143).

respective fields in search of a new, more meaningful

This talk goes from past to future as they introduce

terrain to occupy.

the idea of theoretical limits and the flattening of the

It was during this performance and the writing

imagination space, as told through a narrative explo­

of this show that DelGaudio and Kaino discovered the

ration of video games and symbolic play. The gist is

term “Alexander’s band/’ which led to the invention of

that in the past, games were primarily made with sym­

the name A.Bandit.

bols, but what is now lauded as advanced 'Creative'1 w ith high-end three-dim ensional graphics is more explicit and literal, leaving less to the imagination.

A ct 3:

W hen W orlds C ollide

DelGaudio and Kaino would exchange books to read. One day, Kaino pulled a book on Marcel Duchamp off the shelf and casually began flipping through it, sug­

A c t 5:

Tyranny of Vision

gesting his partner take it home to read. As Kaino Kaino performs a version of the Chinese Linking Rings

Duchamp, DelGaudio shouted, “Wait. Go back!” Kaino

trick as DelGaudio describes the history of the piece

flipped back a page. It was a picture of Duchamp sitting

and explains it as being a work about perception.

at a table with four versions of himself. DelGaudio

Kaino does the entire routine in normal lighting and

S M i

continued flipping through the pages and talking about

o

5

2

then a second tim e under a strobe light. When the

DELGAUDIO

lights are then again turned on, it is revealed that

By u sing the space between the l i g h t ,

Kaino was gesticulating w ildly but in perfect rhythm

p e r h a p s then, the t r i c k y o u t h o u g h t y o u

to the strobe, which had been hiding his movements

w e r e s e e i n g is n o t w h a t y o u a r e s e e i n g .

between them. Is this really happening? Is t h i s the same illusion， or just an illusion? Blackout.

in the dark. DelGaudio then takes the concept further by levitating a basketball under the strobe by tapping it

House l i g h t s up to reveal Ka~ino franticcally moving.

up during the dark moments.

A ct 6: Katno displays two large solid rings of steel. He h i t s the rtrigs together, c a u s ing metal to pass through m e t a l , linking the two s o l i d rings. He s p i n s one r\ng on the other, clearly displaying them as linked together. He then gently rocks the rings back and forth until they melt apart • Ta da!

The work concludes with a political and charged nar­ rative about co nflict and empathy. It explains the nature of how we as a society frame storytelling to hide inconvenient facts and how learning to see dif­ ferently is a vital skill that we w ill need if we are to progress in our time.

Lights up on DelGaudio. He has a basket­ House lights down (with strobe still on) andKaino appears to be hoZdingperfectly ball under his arm. s till• DELGAUDIO T h e C h i n e s e L i n k i n g R i n g s . S o m e s a y i t ;s one of the oldest tricks forced to descr i b e

i n m a g i c . If

how this

h a n d . But really, depth,

some

Blackout•

it is a n i l l u s i o n o f

it “w o r k s ” b e c a u s e o f l i ght.

So

we a s k e d o u r s e l v e s ； w h a t h a p p e n s if you remove

House lights up t o reveal agatn Kaino frantically moving.

illusion

w o r k s , s o m e m i g h t s a y i t rs s l e i g h t o f

of that

light?

Could you

Loud rap music blares over the PA, as if at a basketball game. On a microphone, we hear Katno.

experience more b y seeing less? KAINO

Lights go out. A strobe light comes on.

Ladies and g e n t l e m e n ； Jeff Koons^s famous Floating Ball illusion!

N 3 3 M 1 3 S s o vds

Kaino performs the same sequence as before with the r i n g s . (It Ts not very The strobe light comes on. DelGaudio interesting. In fact ， it ^s less inter­ dribbles the basketball a few t i m e s . He then begtns to pass it from hand to hand. esting than seeing it i n full light.) His hands begtri to move further and fur­ The strobe turns off and l i g h t s come on ther apartf the ball spinntng andgyrating DelGaudio. DELGAUDIO Nope! T he e x p e r i m e n t w as a f a i l u r e • But

co

spaces between the light?

XN3IMm3dx3

WOHd

t h e n w e w o n d e r e d , w h a t if* y o u d i d n ;t t r y to focus on the l i g h t , bu t i n s t e a d the

Lights off and strobe back on Kaino, who is holding perfectly still.

C o n c lu s io n s /L o c k s

251

3 5

252

Debra Singer, the outgoing executive director of The

ONE OF TWO FACES

Kitchen, programmed A.Bandit fo r the last show

A.Bandit. The Kitchen, New York, 2011

a c t i v e image, g e n e r a t i n g t h e a c t i v a t i o n .

A c t 1:

A. rt A ctiva to r

before her departure. Several of the pieces from the

Which means that even passively sitting t h ere you are act i v e l y participating.

earlier SoHo House show made their way into The

The house lights dim, and a stage light begins to glow

Kitchen show, w ith some notew orthy additions.

to reveal the performers flanking a large circular disc

DELGAUDIO

Even previously shown w orks were refined for

with a spiral pattern on it. They introduce the wheel

Keep focusing on the w h e e l . 工 ’ m g o i n g to

presentation in New York.

as an “activator” and ask the audience to stare directly

c o unt b a c k f r o m t e n no w and s h o w t h a t we

into the center of it while they spin it. After several

a r e a c t i v a t e d . P l e a s e c o u n t w i t h m e . Ten,

seconds of staring at the wheel, viewers— whose

n i n e ； eight, seven, six, f i v e ； four, three,

hands were stamped with "A.RT” p riorto entering the

t w o , o n e . N o w l o o k at t h e s t a m p o n t h e b a c k

show—are told to look down directly at their hands.

of your h a n d .

The word bubbles in a magical illusion.

©The Kitchen Presents

簡

祕

.

祕

A DOT FOR ACTIVATION

A large wheel with a spiral destgn is mounted on a stool sitting on the stage. DelGaudio andKaino are on each side of it • They spin the wheel and talk while it spins. Then they stop the wheel and tell everyone to look at the back ofthetr hands . DELGAUDIO Earlier this evening, you got your hand

O

—

Ш

25

i

^ I

stamped on the way into our s h o w . Just r e m i n d i n g y o u b e c a u s e y o u fr e g o i n g t o n e e d t h a t s t a m p soon.

A c t 2:

KAINO

The M istake Room

You are now about to witness an a c t i v a ­

k B A N D IT ABANDITSHIP

t i o n . T h i s is a n a c t i v a t o r . S o m e o f y o u

DelGaudio enters a small booth with a mirror on the

m a y say,

“t h a t ’s b u l l s h i t . ” W e l l , y o u

outside that they call the Mistake Room, while Kaino

d o n ;t k n o w w h a t t h e f u c k y o u ;re t a l k i n g

stands outside looking at himself in the mirror. The

a b o u t ; t h i s s h i t is rad.

lighting in the room subtly changes, which causes the apparently two-way m irror to become transpar­

DELGAUDIO

ent, allowing the audience to see DelGaudio in it.

F o r t h e n e x t m i n u t e o r so, y o u m u s t lis-

He practices the common Color-Changing Card rou­

t e n t o m e a n d d o e x a c t l y as

tine in the the m irror changes back to its initial,

工

say. P l e a s e

stare into the center of the wheel and

shiny state.

d o n o t m o v e y o u r e y e s aw a y . KAINO KAINO

H e s w i t c h e d it. T h e l i g h t s w e r e o n o u t

T h i s is a n a c t i v e a c t i v a t o r , a c t i v a t i n g

t h e r e a n d n o w t h e y ;r e o n i n h e r e . T h i s

t h i s s p a c e . [Spins w h e e l . ] T o n i g h t , w e are

is t h e v i e w f r o m t h e o u t s i d e . T h i s

all t h e a c t i v a t o r s , a n d t h e a c t i v a t e d .

w h e r e w e wo r k .

is

We believe that mistakes have become DELGAUDIO

the only means of progress given our world today. P e r f e c t i o n is easy. It^s b e e n m a p p e d

D o n o t l o o k away.

a n d d e s c r i b e d . It j u s t t a k e s p r a c t i c e . T h e t u n n e l y o u a r e e n t e r i n g is r e a l , a n d

And

everybody

it i s n ’ t. It is a n i l l u s i o n i n s i d e o f a n

mistakes.

knows

that

blow

fake

SMOHS

P r a c t i c e m a k e s p e r f e c t , so t h e y say.

KAINO

5 2

the

secret

content

itself.

A c t 6:

and

DelGaudio walks over and takes a s e a t i n the dark a t a small table. Lights onKaino.

has b een h o w to show w o r k wit h o u t ex p o s i n g the m e thods that give our w o r k agency. We order

have

for

realized,

since

some

of

discovered our wor k

that

to

be

in

fully

KAINO

it n e e d s t o b e e x p e r i e n c e d in

D e r e k is n o t w h o h e s a y s h e is . D e r e k is

two parts, and that those two parts a c t u ­

an

a l l y c a n n o t exi s t in the same p e r f o r m a t i v e

history.

artist

s p a c e , at t h e same t i m e ； or t h e y c a n c e l each other o u t . We

Mistakes on the other hand are h i d ­ den

secrets

and

unknown

Mistakes are subversions ined future

variables.

therefore

Three Halves

present

of Three Pieces.

We can visualize perfect. We cannot

If

g o i n g to do next, y o u c o u l d d e s c r i b e his actions perfectly.

If I t h e n t o l d y o u to

describe

the

next mistake

to make,

y o u w o u l d have to

he

was

invent

going

The audience watches through five repetitions. will

find

out

tonight:

We

d o n ’t

practice. Welcome

to

the

Mistake

Room.

[Cue

I remember the first time

chess,

and

and

he

It

moving

city.

individuals

being the

were

工

pulled

talking

down

a

about

book

The

day,

Glenn

showed me

had

was

five

is

singers,

and

B ) he

name

is

and,

there

G l e n n fs

c o n f e s s i o n a l . It

shot at 3am in j u s t one take. This

is a s e l f - p o r t r a i t .

See also pp. 142-145.

工

工

工

just stared

A c t 5:

The P erform ance of a M irro r

“ I have sat at that

Johnny Gaughan • premier

Johnny

illusion

is t h e

fabricator, h e is a l i v ­

took

DelGaudio andKaino are standing on stage looking out at the audience. They alter­ nate b e g i n n i n g a s e n t e n c e , with the other ftnishing.

to

meet

J o h n n y . We

Some men

interpret nine m e m o s .

Was

it a r a t

Was

i t E l i o t ;s t o i l e t

DelGaudio and Kaino take turns speaking:

row the mirror.

D a m m i t ! I ;ш M a d .

You

for nine m o n t h s . Glenn wanted to create

Do g e ese

a confessional with the mirror.

Madam,

So , of

swo v

three p i e c e s . W e fv e

done

a

lot

of w o r k

over

past year and have m ade g ood ground.

§ OMJL

weWe

One

wNto

been

of

the

most

difficult

had to c o n t e n d with, the

nature

of

secrecy

craft with secret knowledge.

iiim iiim ii

and

things

how

every

the

to

W e did.

mirror

picture

couldn't get

h o w e v e r ; has

slinger

testing

sat

at

the

imaginable

studio

He t o o k

but

just

it r i g h t .

the m i r r o r

!,T I

y o u m e a n !!! ’’

was

工

So he s t a r t e d to shuffle, and e v e r y ­ thing was

perfect

and

in o r der

he h a d b e e n practicing. looked up

“D u d e ! I b r o k e

horrified.

“W h a t

do

because

He finished and

. . . and saw the man holding

a g u n p o i n t e d at him. He said, t h e y get yo u in the heart, was

teaching

“j u s t h o p e

kid.”

Derek

a

valuable

damn

hands

sure

I saw?

M u r d e r f o r a j a r o f r e d rum. see god?

工

E v e . [Said

Adam.

together.]

N e v e r o d d or even.

h e ;s n o t

he b e t t e r

admiring his

own

and t e c h n i q u e . That was the day Derek learned that don't

mean

anything

if

people

k n o w y o u ha v e them. One day Derek called me and told me he

came

up

with

a

new

piece

that

was

u n l i k e a n y t h i n g h e h a d e v e r d o n e . I w o n ’t about

t h i s , but

I will

tell

y o u o n e s e c r e t a b o u t t h i s p i e c e : it t o o k h i m f i f t e e n years to learn ho w to do this .

saw?

D e v i l n e v e r e v e n lived.

T h e n o n e day, he c a l l e d in t h e midd l e of* t h e n i g h t a n d s a i d ,

the

This

is D e r e k ^ s

self-portrait.

The lights darken on stage, and a single l-ight appears over DelGaudio, who sets a watch to one m i n u t e and hands i t t o an audience member. He then unboxes several decks of cards and asks the person to start the clock. “Start!’’ He deals cards into a pile on the table and, a minute later， the person calls “Stop!’’ Derek counts the cards in his hand, grabs a

s i s

fc

the

gun

y o u n g gun slinger.

secrets

at t h e m i r r o r . He o f f e r e d t o let us b o r ­

half

old

speak more Glenn

him

ni q u e s at a card t a b l e , w i t h strangers,

had never seen the photo

said,

him­

see

lesson. If he were to a t t e m p t t h ose t e c h ­

a s ked if we cou l d take a p i c t u r e s i t t i n g

one

the

He

it w a s .

in the w o r l d of magie,

工

see

could

l y r i c s to .

ing legend.

to

like

in a n a t t e m p t t o s t e a l mon e y ,

1

about

to

be

f l e w b y,

world s

now

the

to lip sync to the o n l y s o n g he k n e w that A)

introduced asked

s h u f f l e ; s o D e r e k b e g a n w o r k i n g . 工t w a s next

on

t a b l e . I k n o w who owns t hat m i r r o r • His

are

same

He

pages

b e f o r e ; but

In betw een A cts 3 and 4:

of a l e g e n d a r y card m e c h a n i c w h o he h e a r d

man had

still

in

a

in that

while

,

Colorado

I can

c a n ’t b e . . .

saw this

工

m a g i c i a n ’s

D u c h a m p ； f l i p p e d t h r o u g h it, a n d ； a s t h e

at the p h o t o .

See SoHo House script, pages 249-251.

be

in Denver,

and the

This

I t o l d h i m to stop, a n d

Tyranny of Vision

to

himself

lived

ple lives .This picture reminds me of t h a t .

Superman theme mus-ic.]

A c t 3:

conceptually. has

remember the

p h o t o . Glenn you

it 工t

found

self,

DELGAUDIO

it.

a

t he b a c k of a p o o l hall, s i t t i n g in f r ont

v i d e o he h a d sh o t in t h e m i r r o r . He c h o s e

DelGaudto walks out onstage, Katno remains backstage.

in

make each of the five reflections become

The Grand Finale

G l e n n has a lot of secrets . He leads m u l t i ­

As

broke

“ I d i d n / 1 r e a l l y b r e a k it •

p e r s o n •”

A c t 4:

asked you right now what Derek was

工

工

still.

of an idealized outcome.

trapped

W h e n he w a s s e v e n t e e n y e a r s o l d he He explained,

into the i m a g ­

v i s u a l i z e m i s t a k e s , a n d t h a t ;s e x c i t i n g .

184 Seconds

Our dilemma

5

4

5 2

Some say that secrets have two faces , the knowledge that a secret exists,

256 o3

0M1

writes 184- seconds^ on a piece of Kaino gathers a group of ten audience paper， then stands up. members, who are tnvtted to the stage and are placed i n a c i r c l e , with DelGaudio See also pp. 130-135. at the top. pen,

t h r o u g h China.

He responded,

“I stopped

257

t elling people ha l f of the things I w i t ­ nessed

over

there

because

they

simply

wouldn't believe m e . ” We w anted to take you on that j o u r ­ n e y and give yo u a s t o r y so a m a z i n g that,

DELGAUDIO 工n

A c t 7:

One of Two Faces

a

a moment, secret

that

Glenn

in m y

is g o i n g t o w h i s p e r

ear.

After

secr e t , I will

he

decide

tells

me

whether

to

Despite the title referencing the tw o faces of a

p a s s o n G l e n n ^ s s e c r e t o r o n e o f m y own.

secret—the knowledge that the secret exists, and the

T h e n , in

se cre t in fo rm a tio n its e lf 一 A .B a nd it w anted to

that

acknowledge the witness as an invisible third part of

the

the equation, nodding to the importance of recogniz­

your o w n .

t u r n ; each

same decision, secret

you

of

you

will

make

wh e t h e r to pass

on

,

of

were

given

or

one

tomorrow, when you tell people about your trip, t h e y w i l l c a l l y o u a liar.

Now, we

realize

and

that

it

is u n r e a l i s t i c

far

too e x pensive to take all of y o u to China, so w e h a v e b r o u g h t C h i n a t o you.

Please

w e l c o m e C h i n a Chow!

See also pp. 38-47.

ing the moments of perform ance shared between everyone involved. The printed program, which every viewer was given as a guide for the evening, doubled as a decoder ring at home. The duo had encoded

The audience members each pass the secret along, ending with Kaino, who reveals, “J w a s born with a sixth finger.

secrets into the program; if the viewer spent enough time figuring them out, he or she would be rewarded with certain aspects of how the show works behind

A c t 10:

the scenes.

A W alk T hrough China KAINO

[reading/Vom

A c t 8:

Set Sale

See Set Sale performance, pages 48-53.

Cities

工t a l o

CaT/Uino's I n v i s i b l e

(uThtn C i t i e s 2f f, 1972)~\

M a r c o P o l o i m a g i n e d a n s w e r i n g (or K u b l a i K h a n i magined his answer) one

was

lost

that the more

in u n f a m i l i a r

quarters

of

distant c i t i e s ； the more one u nderstood

A c t 9:

No Sm all Secrets

the o t her cities he h a d c r o s s e d to arrive there;

KAINO There are no small

and he r e t r a c e d the stages of his

journeys

secrets.

from

,

which

familiar DELGAUDIO We

all

have

he

places

came

to

know the

port

had

set

sail,

and

the

of

his

youth,

and

the

s u r r o u n d i n g s of home, a n d a l i ttle s q u a r e

secrets. Everyone

a b out a se c r e t y o u have.

and he

,

think

o f V e n i c e w h e r e he g a m b o l l e d as a child.

T o n i g h t we are

g o i n g to g i v e a f e w o f y o u one more.

DELGAUDIO 工n

1271 Marco

Seventeen

Polo

years

set

later

his home in Venice,

sail

,

he

and,

for

China.

returned

to

when asked how

his tr i p w a s ； his stories w e r e so e x t r a o r ­ d i n a r y t h a t n o one b e l i e v e d him. H e s p o k e of black rocks that would catch fire and b u r n for hours, clo t h e s lac e d w i t h gold, and plants that would heal the He

became

m i l l i o n lies . a

m im iim m

writer

known

" Toward

asked

as

“t h e

sick. man

of

a

the end of his life

Marco

about

his

trip

CO

259

In & Of Itse lf \s, at heart, an exploration of the sup­ posed s in g u la rity of id e n tity in an increasingly fractured world. Like all individuals, this performance

WERNER ENTERTAINMENT | GARY GODDARD ENTERTAINMENT PREDICTION PRODUCTIONS AND NEIL PATRICK HARRIS PRESENT

piece is both a fully realized, complex whole and yet,

OF ITSELF

simultaneously, nothing more than a series of flat­ tened transient images perceived by an audience. At every moment, viewers can receive each stage pic­ ture at face value, or can attem pt to build a more complex, integrated w ho le ... while realizing that both interpretations are equally “true.” In service of this

IS AN

central duality, objects are purposed and repurposed, their backstories and futures shifted, and the audi­ ence is forced to co nsta ntly reevaluate labels,

4

assumptions, and expectations. The piece thrives in

.

the interplay of perceived and received identity, using storytelling, magic, and design to circle closer and closer to its inexorable central message. This is iden­ tity in the modern world: I am what I am. I am also, equally, what you see. As such, what you are reading 9T0S

now is the second half of the show: one individualized reaction, a singular personal interpretation, one audi­

一 99

CQ

ence m em ber's w itness to the thing itself. True

UYs o q sno 4X B s u soy7 a Jyo

ho

perception consists of equal parts projection and reception ... meaning no one person can control it. The temporal aspects of this piece are also

ar

used to further drive the point home— in a theatrical

m

space, where no tw o people can occupy the same

.

м

seat, in a live show that changes from night to night, it is literally impossible that two individuals w ill ever



see precisely the same thing . . . and thus, the piece itself must inevitably shift as a result. No one can pos­

42

啗

sibly see the same show, and yet, the show itself pre­

w j jМ o

sents a consistent, cohesive experience . . . doesn't it? Identity is both fluid and static, both this and not-

Л a E IPBaldsMql o J xo

this, both remarkably simple and impossibly complex.

.2

It is perhaps in this inherent duality that true selves

brl

can be found.

-s

—TRAVIS SENTELL

C R EATED & PR E F O R M E D BY

DEREK DELGAUDIO

bc .s

FRANK OZ O rig in a l M u s ic By

Tom W erner

M ark Mothersbaugh

cq ^

Glenn Kaino

CH'

P rod uce r

泠

(

212) 375-1110

#inandofitself

w.inandofitselfshow.com

S M O K S

w j joj J ^ S O J

DARYL ROTH THEATRE

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262

figs. 1-5

Various entries from the Ship^ Log from In & Of Itself. The log is a collaborative documentation project between

263

DelGaudio and a member of his audience, chosen during each show, who records what they have seen.

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THE ARTISTS WOULD LIKE TO THANK Neil Patrick Harris Denise Markonish Tom Werner David Blaine Gil Cates, Jr. Teller Randall Arney Marina Abramovi6 Michael Carbonaro John Baldessari Lauri Firstenberg Ricky Jay Gideon Webster Tony DeLap Luke LizaIde Michael Weber Travis Sentell Mike Caveney Tracey Shiftman Ti 门a Lenert Jonny Woods John Gaughan James Ihira John Lovick Mary DelMonico Max Maven Dan and Dave Buck Shoot Ogawa Rob Zabrecky Debra Singer Sebastien Clergue Frank Oz GLENN WOULD LIKE TO SPECIALLY THANK Corey Lynn Calter Sadie Jane Kaino Stella Rose Kaino DEREK WOULD LIKE TO SPECIALLY THANK Vanessa Lauren Chaplin Alexandra DelGaudio Jennifer Lohrig-DelGaudio

Published in 2017 by DelMonico Books-Prestel DelMonico Books, an imprint of Prestel, a member of Verlagsgruppe Random House GmbH Prestel Verlag Neumarkter Strasse 28 81673 Munich Prestel Publishing Ltd. 14-17 Wells Street London W1T3PD Prestel Publishing 900 Broadway, Suite 603 New York, NY 10003

Copyright © 2017 A.Bandit, Derek DelGaudio, and Glenn Kaino for their respective works All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic or mechan­ ical, including photocopy, recording, or any other information storage and retrieval system, or otherwise without written per­ mission from the publisher. A Cl P catalogue record for this book is available from the British Library. Library of Congress Control Number: 2017956821 ISBN 978-3-7913-5564-1 Editor: Jane Hyun Design: Tracey Shiftman and James Ihira, Shiftman & Kohnke, with Jonny Woods, Glenn Kaino Studio Cover Illustration: Michelle Parrott Printer: Dr. Cantz'sche Druckerei Medien GmbH Printed and bound in Germany

PHOTOGRAPHY CREDITS A.Bandit: pages 68 (bottom), 70-75,80-89,146,148-149,152155,171,181,252, 256, 262-271 Kelly Barrie: 56-57,138,150-151,156-161,170,172 (bottom), 173, 241,246-247 © Paula Court, courtesy of The Kitchen: 48-53, 76-79, 131135,174 (bottom), 253-255,257 Sebastien Clergue: 273 Bryce Craig: 260-261,272 Jim Dziura: 1,36 (bottom)-37,94-95,96 (top), 97,101 -103,124, 126-129,178,249-251,274 Hammer Museum, Los Angeles: 90 Charley Gallay: 96 (bottom), 99,100 Amy Graves Photography © Museum Associates/LACMA: 104-105,106 (top), 110 Glenn Kaino Studio: 46, 54-55,139,169,172 (top), 184 Christie Hemm Klok: 31 Stefanie Keenan: 38-45, 47, 66-67, 68 (top), 69, 118-119, 136-137 Ben Pratt: 62-63 Nat Sin: 147 Storefront for Art and Architecture: 58-61 Jonny Woods: 162-168,174 (top)

www.prestel.com ILLUSTRATION CREDITS Bill Robles: pages 108-109,112-113 ,114 (bottom)-115

M a rin a A bram ovid John B aldessari David Eliaine Tony D eL ap D ere k D elG au d io Ricky Jay G lenn Kaino D en ise M arko nish M a x M aven Teller