Jackson V Aeg Live, July 19th 2013, Transcripts Of Katherine Jackson

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JACKSON V AEG LIVE July 19th 2013

Katherine Jackson

(Michael Jackson's Beloved Mother, Jackson Family Matriarch, Plaintiff)

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Plaintiff' Witness.

Judge: Is there anything we need to talk about before we call the jury? All right. Okay. Call them in.

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(The jury enters the courtroom)

Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. Good morning, everybody. Counsel, will you make your appearances?

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Mr. Panish: Yes. Good morning. Brian Panish for the Plaintiffs. Mr. Boyle: Good morning. Kevin Boyle for the Plaintiffs.

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Ms. Chang: Good morning. Deborah Chang for the Plaintiffs. Ms. Stebbins: Jessica Stebbins Bina for the Defendants.

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Mr. Putnam: And Marvin Putnam for the Defendants.

Mr. Panish: Yes. Plaintiffs call Katherine Jackson at this time.

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Judge: Thank you. You may be seated. Plaintiffs, you can call your next witness.

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Ms. Robinson: Good morning. Laura Robinson for the Defendants.

Katherine Jackson, called as a witness by the Plaintiffs, was sworn and testified as follows:

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The clerk: Would you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly state that the testimony you're about to give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

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The witness: I do.

The clerk: Thank you, ma'am. You may have a seat. And, ma'am, can you please state and spell your first and last name for the record? The witness: My name is Katherine Esther Jackson. K-a-t-h-e-r-i-n-e, j-a-c-k-s-o-n.

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The clerk: Thank you. Judge: Thank you, ma'am. You may begin. Direct examination by Brian Panish: Q. Yes. Good morning, Mrs. Jackson.

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A. Good morning.

Q. First of all, what is your date of birth? A. I was born may 4th, 1930.

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Q. I know this is not a great question, but how old are you? A. I'm 83 years old.

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Q. Is this the first time you've ever testified in a court with a jury like this? A. Yes.

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Q. Are you nervous? A. Yes, I am.

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Q. Did you get a lot of sleep last night? A. No.

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Q. All right. Now, Mrs. Jackson, are there any medical conditions that you have that may make it hard for you to testify here today? A. I'm a little hard of hearing, so I would appreciate it if you would talk a little louder.

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Q. Okay. Anything else?

A. I -- in my 83 years, I've forgotten a lot of things, so I'll try to answer the questions as best I can.

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Q. Okay. Mr. Panish: Your honor, is everybody able to hear okay? Judge: It's hard. Mr. Panish: I don't think so.

A. Good morning. Mr. Panish: Better?

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Mr. Panish: So I know it's kind of uncomfortable, but -- okay. Mrs. Jackson, can you say something for us? Just test it out. Good morning.

Judge: You want her to use the book?

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Mr. Panish: Good idea.

Q. Okay. We're just trying to adjust the microphone. Let's try that. Good morning. A. Good morning.

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Q. Pretend you're singing in the choir. Try to get it out a little bit. I know it's hard for you. Okay? A. Okay.

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Q. All right. Mrs. Jackson, I know that you come from a famous musical family. Are you a private person?

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A. Yes, I am. I leave the spotlight for my children. I always stay in the background. Q. Now, is it difficult for you to come here and bring up a public matter like this in front of the public?

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A. Yes, it is. The most difficult thing is to sit here in this court and listen to all the bad things they say about my son. Q. And why is that difficult for you?

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A. Pardon? Q. Why is that difficult for you?

Q. So are you here to speak for your son, Michael?

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A. I'll try my best.

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A. Well, a lot of the things that have been said are not the truth. He's not here to speak for himself.

Q. And why is it that you're here to testify today?

A. Because I want to know what really happened to my son, and that's why I'm here.

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Q. And do you believe that your son was a bad person, or some of the things that have been said? And the Defendants have said, "It's ugly," and they're "Going to expose the ugly of your family and your son." Mr. Putnam said that at the beginning of the case. Do you believe that's the case? Mr. Putnam: Objection, your honor. Misstates the testimony and my comments. Q. Mr. Putnam said in his opening statement. Did you sit here, hear his opening statement? A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did Mr. Putnam take your deposition for many days?

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A. Yes, he did.

Q. Did he ask you many questions you didn't like?

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A. Yes, he did.

Q. And how does it make you feel to hear that they're going to tell everyone that your son is a bad person?

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A. Makes me feel real bad, because I know my son was a very good person. He loved everybody. He gave to charity. He's in the Guinness book of records for giving the most to charity of all of the pop stars. I'm so nervous. I'm sorry.

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Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about you a little bit, Mrs. Jackson. Where were you born? A. I was born in Barbour County, Alabama. A little, small town.

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Q. What was the name of the town? A. Barbour County. Town? Eufaula was the name of the town.

A. Yes.

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Q. Eufaula, Alabama?

Q. Let me ask you: And what was your -- well, who were your parents?

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A. My father was Prince Scruse, and my mother was Martha Upshaw.

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Mr. Panish: I want to show exhibit 1007. All these have been given to counsel.

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Q. And who is in that picture, ma'am? A. That's my father. That's my father and Michael and myself.

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Q. And your father's name was Prince Scruse? A. Yes.

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Q. S-c-r-u-s-e? A. Yes.

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Q. Is Prince a family name in your family, Mrs. Jackson?

A. That name goes all the way back to slavery. His father, his grandfather, his great grandfather, his great grandfather were all named Prince.

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Q. Were you pleased when you learned that your son was going to name -- Michael was going to name his son Prince? A. Yes, I was.

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Q. Now, we heard all these things, well, since your son was the king of pop, he was going to name his son Prince. Is that why he named his son Prince?

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A. No. Q. Why was it?

A. It was because of my family. He loved my father.

Q. Now, in your family, Mrs. Jackson, was there musical talent?

Q. Tell us about it.

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A. Yes.

A. My father -- my grandfather on my mother's side, my great grandfather, I should say. Name was Columbus Brown. He was a very good singer. He sang in the church. And my mother used to tell me that on Sunday mornings they would open the old wooden windows in the church in Alabama, and you could hear my grandfather's song. His sang, and his voice rang all over the valley.

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Q. At some point in time did your family move from Alabama? A. Yes. I was three and a half years old when we moved to east chicago, Indiana. Q. And did -- how far is east Chicago, Indiana from Chicago, Illinois?

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A. We were only 20 minutes out of Chicago, but we were seven miles away from Gary, Indiana.

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Q. Did you grow up in a musical family in addition to your great grandfather, Columbus Brown, that you mentioned? A. Yes.

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Q. Tell us about that. A. Well, my father taught himself to play the guitar.

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Q. What was your father's name? A. My father? Prince.

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Q. I'm sorry. I asked you that already. I'm sorry. I'm nervous, too. Okay. And what did your father -what was his musical talent? A. He played guitar. I played the clarinet in the school band. My sister played the cello in the orchestra. Joseph's side was very talented, also.

A. My husband.

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Q. And your husband, what about his family side's talent?

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Q. Who is Joseph?

A. They were very talented. His brother played the guitar. One of them played the saxophone. And we always had music around the house, and I think that's what encouraged my children. Q. Did you have any health issues, Mrs. Jackson, when you were growing up?

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A. Yes. I had polio as a child. It was -- at that time it was called infantile paralysis because most babies got it at the time. But President Roosevelt had it, also, and he started the March of Dimes. And that was back in the '40s when I was in school. Q. And how did that affect you when you were growing up? A. Uhm, I wore a brace from the age of 7 up until -Q. You wore braces?

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A. Just one brace on my left leg, and wore it up until the age of 9. Q. How did that make you feel as a youngster? A. I was shy.

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Q. How was your son Michael with children who had disabilities?

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A. Michael loved all children, but especially the ones who couldn't care for themselves or had something wrong with them. Everywhere he would go, he would go to the orphanages and would go to the hospitals visiting children. He would always give money for disabled children. And when he was young, he would always have someone visiting from make a wish foundation. Michael would spend all day with them, have lunch with them, play with them.

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Q. Mrs. Jackson, I want to show you exhibit 1008. Mr. Panish: Any objection, counsel? I'm sorry. Can't hear you.

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Mr. Putnam: No. Mr. Panish: Okay. Thank you.

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Q. Who is that? (indicating) there's a screen in front of you.

A. Oh, my gosh. That's me. Q. And when was that?

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A. Pardon?

Q. When was that picture?

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A. I was in high school at the time.

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Q. That your graduation picture? A. No. Q. No? Okay. Now --

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A. Take it down. Q. What was that?

Q. Mrs. Jackson, at some point in time did you get married?

Q. And how old were you? A. I was 19. Q. Who did you get married to?

Q. How old was he? A. 21.

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A. Joseph Jackson.

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A. I did.

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Ms. Chang: She said to take it down.

Q. And where did you live when you were married? A. I moved to Gary, Indiana.

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Q. And is Gary, Indiana -- is that close to East Chicago, Indiana? A. Yes. About seven miles.

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Q. Okay. And when you and your husband were married, did you have a house?

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A. We bought a little house when we first got married, about two or three months later we bought a little house on Jackson street in Gary, Indiana. Four rooms. We didn't have any kids then. I was pregnant. Q. Okay. Hold on.

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Mr. Panish: Is there some feedback? The witness: Am I too close?

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Q. I'll just move it back a little. Hopefully we can still hear you. Now, how many rooMs were in the home that you lived in with your husband in Gary? A. Small, little house. Looked like a garage, in a way.

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Q. All right. I'm going to show you exhibit 1009.

Mr. Panish: Mr. Putnam, is there any objection to any of our exhibits? Do I need to ask you every time?

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Mr. Putnam: No, you don't. Mr. Panish: Thank you.

A. Yes, it is.

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Q. Okay. Is this the home you and your husband lived in? (indicating)

Q. You said Jackson street. Had that been named after you when you moved there?

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A. No.

Q. Was this --

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A. No. That was the name of it. That's the street we moved on. It was a coincidence. Q. And how many children did you and your husband raise in that home?

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A. Nine children.

Q. Can you tell us the names from the oldest to the youngest?

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A. My oldest was my oldest daughter, Rebbie. Her name was Maureen. Jackie was the second. His name is Sigmund. Tito, Tariano was his name. Then Jermaine, Marlon, Michael, Randy and Janet. Q. So Michael would have been your 7th child?

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A. Yes. Q. And then you had three girls and six boys?

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A. Yes. Q. Was that easy?

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A. No.

Q. How was it that you all lived in this -- when you say, "four-room house," is this a four-bedroom house? A. No. Just four rooms. Q. What rooms were there?

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A. We had two bedrooms, living room, kitchen and utility room where we had the freezer and washing machine. We kept things out there. Q. How did you all fit into that 9 -- 11 people, I guess it was; is that right? A. Yes. At one time, 11.

Q. How did you all fit in that house?

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A. I had triple bunk beds, and the largest bedroom was the boys' room. And Joe and I had a room. And then I -- the two girls at the time, La Toya and Rebbie, they slept in the living room on a let-out couch, pull-out couch.

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Q. And then did your boys -- did they sing together at any time then? A. Yes, they did. Sometimes by them sleeping in the room together, sometimes I'd wake up to them harmonizing and singing.

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Q. And what kind of a -- how did six people fit in three bunk beds? Triple bunk beds. A. Okay. Jackie was the oldest so he had a bunk to himself.

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Q. He got his own bunk? A. Got his own bunk. He was the lucky one. And the others doubled up, other two. Randy was a baby,

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so he was in a crib in our room. Q. Okay. So two, two and one?

Q. All right. Now, did your husband work there in Gary? A. Yes. He worked in the steel mill.

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Q. Is that something that was a big industry at the time in Gary?

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A. Right.

A. Yes. At the time. East Chicago and Gary. Chicago steel mill in the city.

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Q. And was the work steady?

A. No, not all the time. Sometimes the steel mill went down, and he was laid off for times. Sometimes a week, two weeks. Sometimes for four weeks or a month or more. Q. Did you, Mrs. Jackson, ever work outside the home?

Q. Did you like that?

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A. I took a job after Randy, because it's about five years between Randy and Janet. And I was a clerk at sears roebuck to help out the family.

A. It was nice. The money came in handy. Q. Did you always have a lot of money? A. No, not at all.

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Q. Were you able to survive and make it?

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A. Oh, yes. We -- I made some of the children's clothes. I -- and that was the first thing, is clothing and feeding the children. I made a lot of clothes. I watched the newspapers for sales. I bought a lot of things on sale. And sometimes we'd go down to the Salvation Army when shoes were wearing out, and sometimes we'd find shoes for some of them. And we made it that way. And when Joe was laid off, us having to live from payday to payday, the money was scarce, and so we had to eat. And so we would never want to go on welfare. So what he did, he went out to the farms. He picked -- he picked vegetables, I canned food. And we would always buy -- every year we would buy a quarter of a cow or half of a cow and keep it in the freezer. And that's how we survived. Q. Were you a good cook?

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A. The kids said so. Q. What did you like to cook?

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A. Gosh, I know how to cook potatoes in every way you can think of because he used to pick the potatoes, clean the field for potatoes and things when he was laid off. Just regular food. Q. Now, did you enjoy having a large family in Gary, Indiana?

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A. I did.

Q. Where your home is, there's like a field or something behind it; is that right?

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A. Yes. But you're not looking at it. We lived on a cul-de-sac. So in the back of the cul-de-sac was a league field.

A. Little league baseball field. Q. Did any of your children play baseball?

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Q. Little league for baseball?

A. Yes. Jackie played and also Tito and Jermaine.

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Q. I want to show you exhibit 1010. What is that a picture of? (indicating)

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A. That's a picture of Tito and Jermaine's team. And the man in the middle is the mayor of Gary. His name is Mayor Katz.

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Q. The mayor of Gary, Indiana, was in the picture? Baseball picture? A. Yes. He sponsored the team.

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Q. And what was the name of the team? A. The name of the team was Katz Kittens, and his name was Mayor Katz.

A. Yes. Q. And who is in that picture with Mayor Katz?

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Q. Okay. All right. And the one with the bow tie there?

Q. Did you like to go to the games?

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A. Jermaine is next to Mayor Katz, and Tito is next to Jermaine.

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A. We always did, Marlon and Michael. And then the girls used to sit out and watch the boys play all the time. Michael enjoyed it because he would save his little pennies and nickels, so when they opened up, there was a refreshment stand, and he would always go there and spend his money on that, on candy and cookies. Q. And what did he do with all that candy?

A. Well, he didn't eat it all. He liked to play "store man." so he would take it and put it and set up a little store, and all the kids in the neighborhood would come and buy from him, and he felt like he was the store man. Q. All right. Now, was religion an important part to you in raising your family?

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A. Yes, it was. I always was close to God. I raised my children as best that I can and gave them spiritual guidance. And I think that's important in every family, they should do that. Wouldn't be so much crime today. But -- I'm so nervous.

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Q. That's okay. What religion were you raised?

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A. Well, I was raised Baptist. And when I was old enough to understand, I saw a lot of things going on, and I didn't think that's the way it should be. So I started searching. And I became a Lutheran; I wasn't satisfied with that. So one day somebody knocked on my door, and her name was Mrs. Midget. Q. Mrs. Midget?

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A. Yes.

Q. She wasn't a midget, though?

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A. No, she wasn't a midget. Q. Or a short person or --

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A. And she was placing Watchtowers. And from there, I got the watchtower, and I read it. And then I called her, and I wanted to have a bible study. And I studied with her, and I found out that was the religion I wanted. I found out that it was the true religion. Q. Okay. And what was that?

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A. Jehovah's Witness. Q. And what did you do about that?

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A. I joined. I got baptized, and I joined. Q. And have you been practicing that religion ever since? A. Yes.

Q. How about your Jehovah’s witnesses, do they celebrate birthdays or holidays?

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A. No.

Q. Are there any days that they do celebrate?

A. They do celebrate one day, and that's the memorial of Jesus’s last super, and we celebrate that. And it tells us to remember and keep doing this in memory of him. So that's the only holiday that we celebrate. That's the only holiday that's in the bible that we're supposed to keep, because it says "keep this day."

A. Yes.

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Q. Have you spent a lot of time in your life reading the bible?

Q. Now, did your children -- did they become raised Jehovah witnesses?

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A. Some -- they were raised, but some of them became witnesses. Michael became a witness, my oldest daughter, and she still is. And LaToya became a witness.

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Q. And others went into other religions? A. They're not.

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Q. All right. We won't go there. Let me ask you this: Did you stop having holidays for your children right away? A. No. Not right away, because my husband wasn't a witness, so -- and we finally weaned him away

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from the other holidays. Q. Now, did you still try to instill a love of music in your children? A. Yes.

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Q. Let's talk about your son Michael, your 7th son. I want to show you -- first of all, when was Michael born? A. Michael was born August 29th, 1958.

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Q. I want to show you exhibit 1011, a photograph. And who's that? (indicating)

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A. That's Michael. He was about two or three years old. Q. And what does this photograph show?

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A. It just shows him as a sweet little boy to me. My baby. Q. What was he like as a small child?

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A. Gosh. Michael has always been sensitive, been loving. I can remember Marlon, his older brother, being sick. And at that time you could go to the drugstore, and the pharmacist -- you would tell them the symptoms, what's going on, and the pharmacist would give you medicine. And by the time I got back, Marlon had gotten worse. Marlon was standing there holding his hand -- I mean Michael was

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standing there holding his hand, a boy of three years old, and crying. Q. Crying when his brother was sick? A. Crying when his brother was sick.

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Q. Did there come a time when you realized that your 7th child had an interest in music?

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A. Yes. He was born that way. He -- when all the kids was dancing around, he was in my arms, and he couldn't be still. He was dancing, too, to the music. And when he started to walk, he would still dance. And there's a story about -- I imagine I've told the story so many times. Q. Share it with us.

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A. We had an old, rickety washing machine, a Maytag. And if you could remember the washing machines, when they were older, they had the dasher. And then they had the rolling -- you rolled your clothes to dry them out, squeeze the water out of them. And it was so old and rusty, until it was done washing, it would make a noise, and by the rotor going, it would make a rhythm noise, like "squeaky, squeaky, katum, katum," something like that, and he would be down there dancing, sucking his bottle to the squeaking of the washer. And I knew he was going to be -- he just loved music, and he loved to dance.

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Q. Did there come -Mr. Panish: You can take that down.

Q. Did there come a time when you realized that your children had a real musical talent?

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A. Yes. Like I say, they used to sing in their beds, and they played music. My father gave Tito his first guitar. And Joe's brother, which is Trent’s father, he played guitar. So he would come over, and they would play together, and that's what started Tito to play. And they loved the temptations, and they would imitate the temptations all the time. Q. Temptations was a well-known group at the time? A. At Motown. Yes.

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Q. Okay. What is Motown? A. Pardon?

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Q. What is Motown?

A. Motown is a record company which signed my children up later on.

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Q. Okay. Did you have a television? A. Oh, my goodness, yes, we had a TV, but we had an old TV. And sometimes it would break down.

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And at the time there were tubes in TVs, and you could go to the drugstore and take your old tube and get another and come back and put it in. But then later on, the TV would break down, and then we had a TV man. He would come and take it away, and sometimes we didn't have the money to get it back. And that's when the children first started singing. We would sing together, sing old country songs, folk songs. Things like that.

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Q. Did you like country music? A. I grew up on country music.

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Q. Is that from Alabama?

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A. That's when -- we lived in East Chicago, and my father would listen to that, an old country -- I mean, it was a country station coming out of Chicago called the "suppertime frolic." and on the weekends we would listen to the grand ole opry. So we always had music in the house. Q. Now, when is it that your children started getting involved in organized music? A. They were very young. But they had done some singing even when Michael was about five years old. And around town. And then they started singing, winning contests at the high school. And from there, they went on to professional.

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Q. And when you say concerts -- I'm sorry -- "contests," what do you mean? A. Uhm, in Gary there was not a lot to do. So all the high schools had contests for the kids. And they would go from high school to high school. And so my boys, they had got so that they won all the contests that they -- every time there was a contest. And usually when the kids would sing -- when they had the contests, and they seen the Jacksons coming, they would think, "oh, my God, they're going to win again." Q. Did they have a name, the group, or --

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A. Yes, they did. I was thinking about naming them the Jackson brothers 5. But then, her name was Evelyn Leahy, and she wanted them on her program. So she called me, and she said, "I want to advertise them, so what is the name?" And I told her, "The Jackson Brothers 5." And she said, "Well, let's cut that a little short and name it the Jackson 5." And I thought it sounded better, so I was for it.

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Q. And that's how the name came about? A. That's how the name came about.

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Q. Did there come a time when you realized or even realized that Michael might have A. Special talent himself?

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A. Yes. When Michael was in kindergarten and had started school, he was always singing in the house anyway from a tiny kid all the way up. So they were having a contest -- not a contest. I'm sorry. Having a program at school. And the teacher had sent a note home and told me Michael was in the program. So

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I and Michael's grandfather, Joseph's father, went down to school. And he -- and I was thinking, "How is he going to go up there just at five and sing?" Q. How old was he?

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A. Five years old. And he sang "Climb Every Mountain." and I was so nervous when he walked out on the stage, because he was always shy. And he started singing the song, and he sang it with such clarity and didn't miss -- not flat or anything. Joe's father sat there and cried like a baby. Looked around, and I was crying, too. He got a standing ovation for his performance. And he wasn't nervous, and I was shocked. And I think he must feel more at home on stage.

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Q. How did that make you feel?

A. I felt -- I was proud of him because I didn't think he could do it.

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Q. Did there ever come a time when it was discussed of Michael joining his brothers in their group? A. Well, that happened when he was about six years old. And he was singing, and even after he had sang "Climb Every Mountain," I told Joseph -- because Jermaine was the lead singer. And I told him Jermaine needed help, and I told him Michael could help him. He didn't believe me, so I forced him to listen. And that's how Michael got the job. And then after that, he became leader when they became professionals. Motown made him a lead singer.

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Q. And did the Jackson 5 ever lose any contests? A. When they were at home? Q. Yes.

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A. Playing against high schools? They did. They lost once. And I think that they were sick of seeing the Jacksons win. So it was another team, and it was one of the boys that belonged to this other group who lived next door to us, and they won that year.

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Q. Okay. I want to show you exhibit 1013. And is that the group early on? (indicating)

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A. Yes. Those are my boys. Q. And where is Michael?

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A. Michael is the little kid to the right of us. Q. I'm sorry?

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A. He's on the right.

Q. Here? (indicating)

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A. Right there.

Q. Who is that? (indicating)

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A. That's Jermaine. Q. (indicating)

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A. That's our drummer, Johnny Jackson. No relation. Q. Not related to you? A. No.

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Q. Had the same name?

Q. Not one of your children? A. No. Coincidence, which is good, though. Q. What does it say on the drum?

Q. "and Johnny"? A. Yes.

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A. "The Jackson 5 and Johnny."

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A. Same name.

Q. Okay. So there's six people? A. Six people.

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Q. Who is this? (indicating)

A. That's Marlon, Tito and Jackson. Q. And when we saw TJ. And Taj, they're Tito's children?

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A. They're Tito's children, yes.

Q. Now, where did the boys rehearse early in their career?

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A. They rehearsed at home. Q. In the four-room house?

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A. In the living room. We would push all the furniture back on the walls, and they would dance and put -- set up the drums and things and rehearse right there.

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Q. And how did you get the money to buy the instruments?

A. Well, we saved it. I used to always argue and fuss with Joe about, "I need more rooms. I need more rooms." and when we would save money, we'd buy more instruments. We'd buy amplifiers and things like that.

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Q. And who made the costumes back then? A. I did.

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Q. You sued them yourself? A. Yes, I did.

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Q. Let me look at exhibit 1014, please (indicating). What are those called, those suits?

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A. Homemade suits. Q. Okay. Did you make those suits?

m .co

A. Yes. Q. I guess that's what they're called.

Q. All right. And how long did a homemade suit last?

so n

A. That's what they're called.

A. They grew out of them much too fast, because we had to save money to buy more suits because I wasn't going to attempt that anymore.

ck

Q. Okay. And at some point in time, after they had been winning some of these contests, did they ever get a gig, I guess you'd call it, where they would get paid?

ae lJa

A. Yes. They had gotten to where the Temptations or Gladys knight or someone came around to Chicago to play at the theaters, I guess the owners of the theater would always call us, and the boys would be on stage with them. They would play, and we got paid that way. Q. Now, at some point in time did the Jackson 5 sign with a record company? A. Yes. They signed with Motown in 1968.

M ich

Q. And did you still live in Gary, Indiana, at that time? A. Yes.

Q. And did you at that point in time ever move?

A. Yeah, we moved. The boys moved first to California. And later, about four months later, I came. Me and the children that were left at home. LaToya, Randy and Janet, we all came out later.

am

Q. Okay. And what did you think when you got to California?

Te

A. I had always wanted to live in California. And when I was a girl, I used to dream of coming to California because it was so much snow back home, cold. And sometimes it would get 10, 15 below zero. And I would go to the movies as a girl, and I would see. And they would always show California -- because we got our news sometimes in the theater, especially the war news, and all of that. And it would show California, people running around in convertibles and palm trees. And I always thought when I had to leave the theater and go out in the snow to get home, and my dream was to live in California.

w.

Q. Did the Jackson 5 then start making records? A. Yes, they did, once they signed up with Motown.

ww

Q. And they had single records; is that right? A. Uhm, yes. The first four singles that they made with Motown became gold records. Number one

m .co

records. Q. Number one records? A. Four number ones in a row.

so n

Q. And was there something called Jackson mania at that time?

Q. All right. Now, let me show -- did you pick out for us --

ae lJa

A. Pardon?

ck

A. At that time. My goodness, don't mention that. So many girls around the house. I got so tired of -they would come and stay all day, and sometimes some of them wouldn't go home, so I had to go out at night and drive them home.

Q. Did You help us just get a couple videos of the boys and Michael when they were young to show kind of an example of what they liked to do? A. Yes.

(a video clip is played) Q. That's your house? A. Yes.

M ich

Q. Okay. I want to show you exhibit 1015 from the early years back. And this is the music Michael sang to help prepare this?

am

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. Who is Michael?

Te

A. The little boy back there like he's freezing to death. That's Michael. Q. On the side there?

w.

A. In the snow.

(the video clip continues to be played)

ww

Q. Is that in your house? A. Yes. That's when we pushed the furniture back, and they would dance when he was --

m .co

Q. And do you know how old he was there, Michael? A. He was about five. (the video clip continues to be played)

so n

Q. Is this Motown? A. Yes. That's Motown.

ck

Q. Did they go to an audition? A. Yes. That's the audition.

Q. What is this? A. That's on one of those television shows. Q. Ed Sullivan?

M ich

A. That's Ed Sullivan there.

ae lJa

(the video clip continues to be played)

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. Is that Michael?

A. Another television show. I don't remember which one. (the video clip continues to be played)

am

Q. Who is that? Janet? A. Michael and Janet.

Te

Q. Did you make those outfits? A. Pardon?

w.

Q. They had that cartoon series? A. Yes.

ww

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. Where is this?

m .co

A. Motown 25. Q. And do you remember where this was? A. Pardon?

so n

Q. Do you remember where this was filmed? A. I think that was in Pasadena somewhere.

Q. Is one of the brothers -- this was the reunion?

ck

(the video clip continues to be played)

Q. Barry Gordon, the owner of Motown? A. Owner of Motown. Q. He didn't leave?

ae lJa

A. Yes. Jermaine left the Jacksons when they left Motown. He was married to Barry Gordon's daughter.

M ich

A. He didn't leave. So Motown 25, that's when they rejoined them. (the video clip continues to be played)

The witness: And that's Jermaine hugging them, and they were happy that he was back. Q. Okay. So as a mother, when you saw Michael perform like that, how did you feel?

Q. Yeah.

am

A. How did I feel?

A. I felt very proud.

Te

Q. When he did these special performances, were you surprised to see how he did in these special events?

w.

A. Yes. Especially one time when he was 14. He sang solo on one of the award shows. And that was very good, I thought. I was most proud of him. Q. Were you there?

ww

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Have you ever heard of the Academy Awards?

m .co

A. Yes. It was at the Academy Awards. Q. And I have a clip of that. Do you know what song Michael sang?

Q. And Michael, when he went to perform, you said he was about 14?

Q. And he was younger than his son Prince is now?

Q. And were you nervous about it? A. I was a little bit, but he did well.

ae lJa

A. Yes.

ck

A. He was 14 at the time.

so n

A. He sang Ben. It's a song about a rat. And it's a song from a Movie.

Q. Okay. Well, let's -- exhibit 1016. You remember who introduced Michael (indicating)?

Q. Who is that?

M ich

A. Yes. One of my favorite actors.

A. I'm so nervous, I can't remember. I know who he is very well, but -Q. This was Michael at 14? A. Yeah.

am

(a video clip is played)

Q. Was Michael singing that song again? A. Yes. He's older. As you can see, his voice has changed there.

Te

Q. Did he like that song, Ben? A. Yes, I do.

w.

Q. Did Michael like that song?

ww

A. Yes, he liked that song because he liked rats. That song is about a rat. And I can remember a story that we went to Beverly Hills to have dinner, and we were eating, and Michael kept pulling his coat up and putting crumbs into his pocket. And I said, "what are you doing?" and he held it up, and he had a rat in his pocket, and he was feeding it. And I was really upset with him.

m .co

Q. How about -- by the way, the actor, you heard of that movie Ben-Hur? A. Oh, yes. And isn't that awful.

A. Thank you. I can't think of his name, but I love him. Q. Did Michael like animals?

ck

A. Yes, he did. But one thing he didn't like were dogs.

so n

Q. Charlton Heston?

Q. Why not?

ae lJa

A. Well, he had a bad experience with dogs. One year when he was a kid, Johnny Jackson, our drummer, went on vacation, so he left his pit bull with us to take care of. And Michael and Randy was playing with the dog -Q. Hold on one second. A. I'm too close?

M ich

Q. Why don't you push it forward a little more. A. How is that? Is that better? Q. Better.

A. Is that better? Okay. Where was I? Q. You were telling us about dogs.

w.

Te

am

A. Oh, yes. And Johnny left the pit bull with us to take care of. And Michael and Randy was playing with the pit bull, and Michael discovered during their play, the dog got mad. And I don't know why he got upset, but Michael discovered that, so he ran and jumped on top of the jeep. And Randy was teasing Michael, "Oh, you're scared of a little old dog." And he said, "For real, Randy. That dog is mad." And so Randy went over teasing the dog, and the dog turned on him. So Randy tried to jump on the Jeep, and before he could get away, he took a big chunk out of his arm and out of his heel. When he jumped out at him, took a chunk out of his heel. And I rushed him to emergency, but he bit down to the bone. And I don't know how he took that chunk of meat out of his arm like that. Like somebody took a sharp spoon and dug it out. And I could see his bones and everything. And so Michael has been afraid of dogs ever since. Q. And at some point in time, despite his fear of dogs, did he get a dog for his children?

ww

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And what kind of dog was that?

m .co

A. A chocolate Labrador. Q. What was the name of the dog?

so n

A. Kenya. And we still have him.

Q. And when Michael passed away, in addition to getting a lab, did you get some other pets, too?

Q. Besides singing and dancing --

ae lJa

A. And two cats. Excuse me. And I don't like cats.

ck

A. I inherited almost a zoo. Yes. There was a parakeet and parrot. Ferrets, mice. So much I can't think of it.

Q. Besides singing and dancing, did Michael like to do other things? Drawing? Art? Anything like that? A. Can you repeat? I didn't hear.

Q. Okay. I'm sorry. How are you doing? You doing okay?

M ich

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. All right. In addition to singing and dancing, did Michael like to do other things? Any art? Anything like that? A. Oh, yes. Michael was a very good artist. He did a lot of art in school. And some of his pictures have been sold since. And he writes songs.

am

Q. All right. And did Michael like to sit around and watch TV? A. No. You'd never catch him doing that. And I had to sit here and see that email talk about how lazy Michael Jackson was. That's the biggest lie in town. My son is not lazy, and you know that he wasn't lazy.

Te

Q. How was Michael in school?

A. Michael was good in school. He was not an exceptional student, but he was fair student.

w.

Q. Was he as good as Prince? A. No, not at all.

ww

Q. Okay.

A. Prince is a straight a student.

A. Yes. They left Motown, and I think they went to Epic records at that time.

m

so n

Q. Do you know how many records they'd sold by that time?

.co

Q. At some point in time you mentioned that the Jackson 5 left Motown except for Jermaine.

A. With Motown? I can't remember exactly. But at Epic, I think their first record went double platinum.

ck

Q. Remember what that was? A. No. I think that was the album Destiny.

A. Yes. Q. Was Michael in a movie?

ae lJa

Q. And around that time, was Michael showing an interest in movies?

A. He was in The Wiz that was taken from the Wizard of Oz.

A. Sidney Lumet.

M ich

Q. Do you know who the director was?

Q. Did he do other pictures?

A. He made, I think, 12 Angry Men. Q. That's about a jury, actually.

am

A. Yes. And also he did Midnight Express and some others. I can't remember them. Q. Okay. I want to just show you a clip from The Wiz. that's 1017. And do you remember what The Wiz was about?

Te

A. It was something taken from The Wizard of Oz. It was -- Diana Ross was Dorothy, and Michael was a Scarecrow. It was around the same thing.

w.

Q. Okay.

A. But in a different way.

ww

Q. This is kind of their yellow brick road. All right. Let's take a look. (a video clip is played)

m .co

Q. Is that Michael? A. That's Michael. (the video clip continues to be played)

so n

Q. All right. Now, did Michael meet somebody that became important in his life by doing that? A. Yes. Quincy Jones did the music for the movie, and so he met Quincy.

ck

Q. I know Quincy is quite famous, but did you know Quincy for a long time? A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q. And how did him and Michael interact?

A. Very well. They made several albums together which did very well. Q. So did Michael then work with Quincy Jones? A. Yes.

A. Yes. Q. Thriller? A. Yes. One of them.

A. Another.

am

Q. Bad?

M ich

Q. And did he work with him through various projects?

Q. Off The Wall?

Te

A. Yes.

Q. And around this time when Michael was 21, did Michael write down what his goals were?

w.

A. Yes. Michael -- well, as we all know, Michael wrote notes to himself all the time, how he felt, and he would always write on the mirror with a grease pen and where he wanted to be at a certain time. When he would make an album, he would always write down how much he would want that album to sell, at least so many. And everything he wrote down just about came true.

ww

Q. And when Michael was 21, where was he living? A. He was living with me.

m .co

Q. With you? A. He was still at home.

so n

Q. Hayvenhurst? A. Yes.

Q. All right. And did Michael ever want to be known as something other than Michael Jackson?

ck

A. Well, he had -- by a certain time in his life he didn't want to be known as Michael Jackson, because that was little Michael Jackson from the Jackson 5. He wanted to be known as MJ.

ae lJa

Q. Okay. A. Why, I don't know.

Q. And did there come a time when he came out and did something as MJ?

A. Well, by the time he was on Motown 25, and he did the Moonwalk, that changed things.

M ich

Q. Okay. Well, let's -- how -- were you there? A. Yes.

Q. How did the crowd react to Michael that night?

A. Oh, my goodness, I can't -- do we have a thing of it?

am

Q. Yes, I do have one. Let's take a look at 1018. And the Moonwalk, had Michael ever done this in public?

Te

A. No. I hadn't even seen it. I'm sure he was practicing it, because he used to practice all the time. And we had a room upstairs over the garage where he would always practice. And he would go up every Sunday and Saturday and dance two hours straight without stopping. And I'm sure he was doing the Moonwalk up there, but we never knew it. Q. All right. Let's take

w.

A. Look. This is the Moonwalk, Motown 25. (a video clip is played)

ww

Q. Now, that black sparkly jacket, where did he get it? A. He borrowed that from me. That was my dinner jacket.

m .co

Q. Was Michael having a lot of success? A. Pardon?

A. Yes. Q. Did it go to his head?

ck

A. No. Michael was the most humblest person you'd ever meet. Q. Did he continue living with you?

ae lJa

A. Yes.

so n

Q. Was Michael having a lot of success?

Q. Until he was 30? A. Yes.

M ich

Q. Did Michael ever do anything special for you at your home where you lived together at Hayvenhurst? A. Michael did so many special things for me. Gosh. I don't know where to start. Q. Well, did he help rebuild the house? A. Oh, yes. Q. Did he --

Te

am

A. When he became 18, he wanted to buy me a house. We went shopping everywhere. By that time, houses had gone up to millions and millions of dollars. We shopped everywhere, and we came back home and decided to remodel, because we couldn't find a house with as much property around it, and the kids grew up there, and he had go-carts and did everything at the house, played basketball and swim. So we decided to -- so he remodeled, and the way you see Hayvenhurst now is the house he rebuilt for me. Q. So it was rebuilt?

w.

A. Pardon?

Q. Remodeled, you said. Rebuilt?

ww

A. Rebuilt, really.

Q. And at some point later did Michael do something to a couple rooms for you?

m

Q. Did he have people come help him do this? A. Well, people helped him enlarge them and all of that, yes.

ck

Q. But the work of putting up the work and the design and everything?

so n

.co

A. Yes. He -- up over the garage, like I said, he used to practice all the time. He'd lock that room up, and he told us not to come in. And he took all my pictures -- because I was wondering, "Where are my pictures going?" He took all the pictures, enlarged them, and instead of wallpaper, he just put them all around the wall and invited the whole family over when he got ready to open it up. And he said, "Here's your surprise. Come in."

A. He helped and -- yes, he did.

Te

am

M ich

ae lJa

Q. All right. Let's look first at exhibit 1019 (indicating). Is this a plaque that Michael gave you?

w.

A. Yes.

ww

Q. It says: "To take a picture is to capture a moment to stop time, to preserve the way we were, the way we are. They say a picture speaks a thousand words, so with these photographs, I will recreate some wonderful magical moments in our lives. Hopefully this journey into the past in picturesque form will be a stimulant to create a brighter, successful tomorrow. Michael Jackson." Is that in your house in Hayvenhurst?

m .co

A. Yes. It's still there. Q. And did Michael write that and put that up for you? A. Yes, he did.

so n

Q. Where is that in the home?

A. It's over the garage, and it's -- I think it's two rooms up there. He did the whole upstairs that way.

ck

Q. Okay. Let's look at it. Exhibit 1020 (indicating). And did Michael prepare this for you? A. Yes, he did.

ae lJa

Q. How did it make you feel? A. I felt proud. He was always giving me things. (a video clip is played)

Q. Okay. Is Michael singing -- what song is he singing here?

M ich

A. "You Are Not Alone." but -(the video clip continues to be played)

Q. Why don't you tell us what you're looking at?

A. You're looking at a picture that he had taken before they left Gary, Indiana. That's my father there. Q. We're looking at the walls of the room?

am

A. That's Rebbie when she was at high school. Joe playing the guitar. Myself and Janet, La Toya. Q. We can see there's like a window, and there's the walls.

Te

A. Yes.

Q. Michael did all this for you?

w.

A. Yes.

Q. And he made all the wallpaper. There's your driver's license.

ww

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. Who is that?

m .co

A. That was me, and that's with the queen. Q. And that's the ceiling up there? A. Yes.

so n

Q. Michael put all that up there? A. Everything was covered with pictures.

ck

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. And Michael made all that for you?

Q. You still have it that way? A. Yes.

M ich

Q. All right.

ae lJa

A. Yes.

Judge: Shall we take a 15-minute break until 11:00? Mr. Panish: Yes, your honor. That would be great.

am

Judge: Let's do that. Break until 11:00, and then we'll come back.

Te

(The jury exits the courtroom)

w.

(Break)

ww

(The jury enters the courtroom) Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. You may continue.

m .co

Mr. Panish: Thank you, your honor. Q. Mrs. Jackson, did Michael ever throw a dinner party for you when he serenaded you? A. Yes.

so n

Q. Does this embarrass you? A. Yes.

(a video clip is played)

A. Yes, I do. Q. Who was sitting next to you? A. It was my favorite pianist.

M ich

Q. Who is that?

ae lJa

Q. Where is this? Do you remember this dinner party?

ck

Q. Okay. Let's look at exhibit 1026.

A. Floyd Cramer, concert pianist.

Q. Is this song that Michael sings, is this one of your favorites? A. Yes, it is. Q. Is that Floyd?

am

A. Pardon me?

Q. Never mind.

Te

(the video clip continues to be played) Q. Is that Mr. Cramer with the bow tie?

w.

A. Yes, it is.

ww

Q. Did Michael, when he was living at home, when he wasn't touring or doing other work, was he -did you and he share stories about his work? Did you share stories about the work he was doing? Talk about the work he was doing? A. When we were where?

m .co

Q. At home. A. Oh. I don't understand the question. Q. Okay. Fair enough. Did Michael like music videos?

so n

A. Oh, yes. Q. Did you talk about those with him?

ck

A. Oh, yes. Q. What would you talk about?

ae lJa

A. We talked about the -- they were really short movies, and I would always tell him -- when he made his first movie, he said, "Well, mother, the second one is going to be better than the first." And I was wondering -- I would tell him, "How are you going to top that?" And he said, "You'll see." And the next one was Thriller, and he did top the first one. And he invited me down to where he was doing another short movie, and it was Ghost. I don't think it topped thriller. But it was funny. Q. Okay. Let's take a look at that. Exhibit 1021 (indicating). You went to the set of this?

Q. And who is that?

M ich

A. Yes.

A. Now it's Michael. At first I didn't know who it was. I know who it is now. But I was sitting at the set, and after they got through, I -- this man came up to me, and supposed to be the white mayor of the town. And I told him, "I'm here to see my son, Michael." And he said, "Mother, it's me." I wanted him to get him for me.

am

Mr. Panish: All right. Is that a video? Just a picture? Okay. Q. Now, did Michael, was he involved in the Jehovah Witness religion for a while? A. Yes, he was.

Te

Q. Did he ever go out with you -- and is part of the religion to go out to people and spread the word of your faith?

ww

w.

A. Yes. Field service, we call it. He had to -- the way he's dressed now. So one morning we got up, and it was the first time that he dressed that way, because people knew who he was, so he couldn't do field service or kids and people following him. So he had to try to disguise himself. And the first time he disguised himself, he got a fat suit, not real fat. And I came down, and he had had breakfast. And I was getting ready to go out in field service with him, and I spoke to this man, like "Hello. How are you?" and he said, "It's me, mother." But he had to do it. Q. So he would go out and knock on people's doors with the suit on?

m .co

A. Yes. Q. He'd get the door slammed in his face? A. Lots of times. But they never knew who it was, so that was good.

so n

Q. All right. So then in 1988 did Michael purchase the Neverland Ranch and move out? A. Yes, he did.

ck

Q. And when he was wasn't traveling around, did he stay at Neverland? A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q. Did you visit him there? A. Lots of times.

Q. Okay. I want to show exhibit 1022, some excerpts with the music that's actually played. Is the music actually played when he lived there at Neverland? A. All the time. All over the ranch, wherever you went, you heard music.

A. Yes. (a video clip is played)

M ich

Q. Okay. Let's take a look. Is that the beginning of the ranch?

Q. So this music would continually play?

am

A. Yes. All the time.

(the video clip continues to be played)

Te

Q. Did Michael write this poem? "When children play, tyrants cry, there is nothing to slay. Fairies dance and goblins sing in the garden, we frolic awhile. Those are the moments when babies smile." A. Yes.

w.

Q. Is that the candy store?

A. Yes. Finally got a candy store.

ww

Q. What is that? A sea dragon? A. Yes.

m .co

Q. Did you ever go on that? A. I did. That's the only thing that I would go on. (the video clip continueS to be played)

so n

Q. Did Michael make the ranch available to people?

ck

A. Yes. And especially for underprivileged children. And he had them -- the movie theater on the ranch. And in the movie theater, he would have beds for children that were sick and couldn't sit up. They propped them up to see the shows that they put on for the children. (the video clip continues to be played)

ae lJa

Q. Is that the house? A. Yes, that's the house. He would invite classes of children. Q. Who is that?

A. Oh, that's -- where? Oh, that was grace and the cook.

Q. What is this?

M ich

(the video clip continues to be played)

A. That's a note that Paris wrote to Michael when he was sick. "I love you daddy so much more than that. Get well." Q. Is that at night?

am

A. Yes.

Q. Did it have a train station? A. Yes.

Te

Q. What was it called? A. Katherine.

w.

Q. Did your grandchildren, Paris, Prince and Blanket, did they like Neverland? A. They loved Neverland.

ww

Q. During the time they lived there, were they being home-schooled? A. Yes.

m

A. Lots of animals. Funny story is -- kids liked to go to Chuck E. Cheese.

so n

Q. Chuck E. Cheese?

.co

Q. And we saw a lot of animals that Michael had there?

A. Yes. Q. Like pizza? Like a lot of kids running around?

ae lJa

ck

A. A lot of kids running around. So Grace had them at Chuck E. Cheese, and the lady there, she was asking them, "Do you like animals? Do you have any animals?" And the kids said, "Yes. We have an elephant, and we have giraffes," And just naming all the big animals. And the lady turned to Grace and said, "Don't they have great imaginations?" Not knowing that they really had those things. Q. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about interventions. A. Okay.

A. Yes.

M ich

Q. Now, as Michael's mother, did there ever come a time when you heard news that he had medical issues caused by pain?

Q. What caused pain for Michael that you were aware of? A. Well, he had been burnt. Q. Bad burns?

am

A. Bad burns on the back and the top of his head. He even had a balloon between his scalp and his head. Q. Did he get migraine headaches?

Te

A. He got headaches. Very bad headaches. Q. Was that from the Pepsi commercial?

w.

A. Yes.

Q. And did Michael take money from -- that was given to him as a result of being burned from the Pepsi commercial and do anything with that?

ww

A. He took that money, and he donated it to the burn center. All of it. Q. Did he have other medical conditions and injuries that caused pain?

m .co

A. Back. Q. Back injuries?

so n

A. He had back injuries. Q. Did he have a skin condition? A. Yes. He had vitiligo.

ck

Q. What is vitiligo?

ae lJa

A. It's a disease that turns your skin white. But while it's doing that, you have -- you're spotted. It works slowly. And so he just wanted to get it over with, and so he just turned the whole thing that way. Q. Now, did -- did you ever discuss with Michael whether he ever had insomnia? A. You know, he didn't talk much about insomnia to me, but he would tell me sometimes, "I didn't sleep last night." that was when he was at home. So I imagine it was just starting. Q. Did Michael -- (brief pause in the proceedings)

A. Yes, he did.

M ich

Q. All right. We're talking about Michael. Did he trust doctors?

Q. Do you know who his doctor was? His primary doctor? A. When he was growing up?

am

Q. When he got older.

A. As he got older? I know that Dr. Metzger was his doctor even when they were young, too. Q. Did you ever see him abuse drugs or medications?

Te

A. No. I've never seen that in him. Q. Did you hear that people said that Michael was abusing prescription medications?

w.

A. I had heard it.

Q. Did you hear it from some of your children?

ww

A. Yes.

Q. Did you believe it?

m

.co

A. Well, I know he was taking pain pills. And when he said "abusing them," I didn't know. Because at that time I had seen Michael so many times, gone to his home unannounced and called him, he didn't know I was calling him, I never heard or seen him in that way. So I don't know how to believe it.

so n

Q. Did you or your children ever try to have any type of intervention of any kind with Michael?

A. Yes. I went with them on an intervention once, because -- I didn't want to go, because I didn't believe it then that he was abusing drugs. But I had heard it from them, and they had heard it, also. But I went because they kept telling me, "it would mean much more, mother, if you would go."

ck

Q. So you went?

Q. And did Michael say he had a problem? A. When we got there, Michael was fine.

ae lJa

A. So I went.

Q. Did you hear of other times that people tried doing interventions with Michael?

M ich

A. Not -- the children talked about it, but I imagine if they did any others, they did it without letting me know. Q. Did you know whether he had a problem one way or the other? A. I couldn't prove it.

Q. Did you think maybe he might?

am

A. I kept hearing it. I thought maybe he might. And then I -- when I went to his home after he had moved to Las Vegas, and I talked to him about it because I was worried. And he promised, and he kept saying, "mother, I'm okay. I'm okay." but sometimes the mother's the last to know. And sometimes they're embarrassed and don't want to let me know. But I was -- I told him, "I don't want to wake up one morning to the news that you're not here anymore."

Te

Q. Now, when your son was rehearsing and being on tours, would you see him very often? A. Pardon?

w.

Q. When he was rehearsing or going on tours, would you see him often? A. Yes, sometimes.

ww

Q. Did you have a family gathering in May of 2009? A. Yes, we did.

m .co

Q. What was that for?

A. That was supposed to be for my 60th anniversary, but it was the wrong time. I think Janet just named it that so we could have an anniversary or a party.

so n

Q. Were you ever asked by anyone to sign anything saying Michael had any issues in 2007?

Q. Did you see Michael -- in People magazine or something? A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q. Did you see Michael in May at the family gathering?

ck

A. Did I ever? Yes, I did. But you know what? I really don't remember that thing. But I did sign something.

A. When? In '09?

w.

Te

am

M ich

Q. Yes. I want to show you exhibit 1-1. Is this the family picture? (indicating)

ww

A. Yes, it is.

Q. And how did you think Michael was at that time?

m

ck

Mr. Panish: Can we zoom in on him? There he is.

so n

Q. Let me ask you this: Can you describe -- okay. Let's look at Michael.

.co

A. At that time, to me, Michael looked okay. Later I -- when I saw it, I saw he was thinner. Because he was dressed in a jacket and all, I didn't notice that he was very thin.

A. That's LaToya. Q. Okay. And Michael is next to LaToya? A. Uh-huh.

ae lJa

Q. Who's got the hat on?

M ich

Q. "yes"? Okay. That's good. Can you tell us, Mrs. Jackson, can you describe your relationship with your son Michael? A. Michael and I were very close. Michael, he was the type of son, a mother wouldn't want a better son than Michael. Q. Was he shy?

am

A. Michael was very shy.

Q. Did he write a poem for you?

Te

A. Yes, he did. He wrote several poems for me.

ww

w.

Q. I'm going to show you exhibit 1023, a poem he wrote called "Mother." "Mother" -- did Michael write this for you?

m .co so n ck ae lJa M ich

A. Yes.

am

Q. "Mother dear, you gave me life. Because of you, no struggle or strife. You gave me joy and position, cared for me without condition." And it goes on. How did you feel? In the end, it says: "No matter where I go from here, you're in my heart, my mother dear." How did that make you feel when Michael gave that to you? A. Well, it made me cry, for one thing. And I felt very -- I felt loved. I knew he loved me.

Te

Q. And after Michael died, did you find another poem that he had written for you?

w.

A. Yes. He had scribbled that on some pieces of paper, and Jermaine gave it to me framed. He must have found it, and he framed it and gave it to me.

ww

Q. Let me show you exhibit 1024 (indicating). And this is in Michael's handwriting. "a reflection of a mother's heart is in the glimmer in her children's every" –

m .co so n ck ae lJa

ww

w.

Te

am

M ich

Ms. Chang: Page 2. Mr. Panish: It's easier to read. This is entitled, "Mother, my Guardian Angel" by Michael Jackson:

m

When you received that, Mrs. Jackson, how did you feel? A. I cried.

so n

.co

"The reflection of a mother's heart is in the glimmer in her children's eyes. Her every emotion and feeling is somewhere in her child's character. Noblemen are what their mother's made them. Why does my mother cry? Are those happy tears or tears of sorrow? Oh, please, God, let them be happy tears. All my success has been based on the fact that I wanted to make my mother proud, to win her smile of approval."

ck

Q. And were you financially dependent on your son Michael while he was alive?

A. Yes. Michael took care of me. My every need, my every want. He gave me everything.

A. Yes. Q. Did he give you gifts? A. All the time.

ae lJa

Q. The necessities of life, he provided for you?

M ich

Q. Cars, jewelry, mobile homes, things like that? A. Yes.

Q. Did he give you money? A. Yes.

A. Always.

am

Q. Did he give you cash?

Q. Why not checks?

Te

A. He never wrote checks.

Q. Did Michael provide you with moral support?

w.

A. Yes.

ww

Q. Can you tell us how have you been affected by the loss of the love, companionship, affection, support, by the loss of your son, Michael? A. Excuse me. Can you repeat?

m

.co

Q. Sure. The loss of your son, Michael, the support, the love, how has that affected you?

so n

A. When a mother loses a child, you -- no one knows until it happens to them. That's the worst thing that can happen to a person, losing a child. I lost my mother, my father and my sister. I'm the only one left. But when I lost Michael, I lost everything. He was the most loving, down to earth, he loved everybody. Very humble. Very humble. No matter -Q. All right. Are you okay, Mrs. Jackson? A. I'm okay.

ck

Q. Let me ask you about this is it. Just a little bit about it. Do you remember when you first heard about it?

Q. And how did you learn about it?

ae lJa

A. This is it? Yes.

A. Well, I think grace had called me and told me. Q. Grace Rwaramba?

M ich

A. Yes.

Q. All right. And now, the other day, the Defendants, AEG, played a portion of your deposition, something to the effect that Michael told you that -- or I think you said he jokingly said he didn't want to be moonwalking on tour at the age of 50. You remember that? A. Yes, I do. Q. Tell us about that.

Te

am

A. It was -- Michael said that quite a few years back. And he was joking. We were talking one day, and we were joking, and he said, "I don't want to be moonwalking at the age of 50." and I thought it was funny. And most of us say things like that. I used to think that 50 was very old. I imagine you've said that you didn't want to be in a courtroom practicing law at the age of 50, because you think that -- but at the age -Q. Here I am.

w.

A. But at the age of 50, it's not as bad as -- you know, young people think that a 50-year-old is an old woman, and by the time you get 50, you don't even feel old. I can vouch for that. Q. Now, Mrs. Jackson, did you think your son could have done 50 shows?

ww

A. Yes. But the only way he could have done them is if they had them spaced out. They couldn't be every other night like AEG Wanted at first. That's why I kept calling.

m .co

Q. Who were you calling? A. I called Randy Phillips, and I called doctor -- what's the name? Q. Dr. Tohme?

Q. So you were just concerned about the spacing out of the concerts?

so n

A. -- Dr. Tohme, first. And I told him, "Michael can't do those shows. They have to change the schedule of it."

Q. Did you visit Michael ever at the Carolwood home?

ae lJa

A. Yes.

ck

A. I was concerned about that. If they spaced it out, he could have done many shows.

Q. Did you go there before he had his press conference in England? A. Yes.

Q. Before the press conference, did you go in his bedroom?

M ich

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any doors locked at that time?

A. No. Every time I went there, we went into his bedroom, and we went into all the other parts of the house. My nephew sitting there now, he would always be with me, and Michael would invite us up there, and we would watch movies, and he would show us different things that he had been doing.

A. No.

am

Q. Okay. Now, did you ever know who Conrad Murray was before your son died?

Q. Had Michael ever mentioned his name or introduced you to him?

Te

A. No.

Q. When was the first time you ever saw Conrad Murray?

w.

A. After Michael died. And I -- at the time I didn't know Michael was dead, because they had just called me and told me to come out to the hospital. And I thought Michael might have been just sick.

ww

Q. Did you know anything about Conrad Murray, AEG, negotiations, contracts -- anything like that between the two? A. No.

m .co

Q. Now, how did you hear about Michael's death?

so n

A. I had been out in field service that morning, and when I came home, I had a call from Joe, my husband, and he told me that one of the fans had called him and said -- you know, fans are always hanging around the house outside. And told him that he saw them bring somebody out on a gurney, and he was covered completely up. And Joe called me, and I sort of got angry, and I was scared at the same time. And I said, "Joe, that doesn't have to be Michael. Why are you doing that to me?" So later on I got a call to go to the hospital, because I thought maybe he was sick.

ck

Q. Did you go to the hospital? A. Yes, I did.

ae lJa

Q. Who was there?

Q. What did you do?

M ich

A. Well, I saw some of the people that worked for Michael, and I saw Conrad Murray, not knowing who he was. He was pacing back and forth. And so my nephew and I were talking, "Who is this man that is going back and forth?" And we saw Frank Dileo, and finally Frank Dileo said, "That's Dr. Murray." That's the only time I knew who he was. And still I was asking him, "Where is Michael? I want to go see him." And nobody wanted to tell me. And so they took me to a room, and I was sitting in there waiting. And so I guess they were back there debating somebody to come. And so Frank Dileo came and told me that Michael had a reaction. And I said, "Well, how is he?" And nobody said anything at first. They looked so funny. And I said, "Well, did he make it? Did he make it?" And Frank said, "No."

A. I was -- everything went dark, and I just heard screaming. Q. Did you see Paris and Blanket and Prince at this time?

am

A. No. I didn't see them until later. They took me into a room, and they had two nurses in there. And then they brought Paris and Blanket and Prince in the room. And they was crying so hard. Q. Was Paris doing anything in particular?

w.

Te

A. She was just screaming, looking up at the sky, to the ceiling, saying, "Daddy, I want to go with you. I can't live without you. I'm going with you." That's all she kept saying. And then they kept going down to the morgue. I guess it was the morgue. Somewhere in the hospital. I didn't go because I didn't want to see Michael like that. And they kept going down and coming back and go back again. Finally, La Toya came, and she went down with them. And I said, "What are they doing?" and she said, "They're hugging their daddy and crying."

ww

Q. Did -- after you left the hospital, did you take the children to Hayvenhurst with you? A. Yes. They told us that it was time for us to go and that -- we had been there for a long time. And Paris and the kids came out, we walked out to the garage where the cars were, and Paris looked at me

m

Q. It's okay. We're going to get through this. Did Paris say something to you? A. Pardon?

so n

Q. Did Paris say something to you, Mrs. Jackson?

.co

and said, "Grandma, where are we going?"

A. Yes, she did. She looked up at me and said, "Grandma, where are we going?" And I told her, "You're going home with grandma."

ae lJa

ck

Q. All right. I want to show -- move off that -- 1033-1. This is a picture at the memorial service (indicating). Is that you with Blanket and Paris?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Has it been a difficult adjustment for the children without their father?

M ich

A. The two boys adjusted fine. I wouldn't say "fine," but -- because you never know with their thinking. But Paris had the hardest time. But I thought she was the bravest because -- she had so many pictures of Michael. When I told her I was going to decorate her bedroom, and I bought everything and decorated. And I had some of my pictures for her bedroom. And she said, "I have pictures." and she had about five big pictures of Michael, and she said, "I want these two over my bed" and over her desk. She had them all over her room. And I was wondering, "How could she do that?" Because I didn't want to see him; every time I saw him, I felt so sad. Then after we moved, she just had a collage. Her whole wall, like the one you saw of the house that Michael did for me. Her bedroom was just Michael's pictures. Q. Now, did Paris do something about getting a necklace with a heart?

am

A. Yes. Before we put Michael away, my nephew and I and Paris and her brothers, she had us running everywhere trying to find this special heart. And it was a heart, a broken heart. And when she got it, she went to the morgue, and she hung one part around her father's neck, and she wore the other half.

Te

Q. I want to show you exhibit 1034-1. Is that Prince (indicating)? A. Yes.

w.

Q. How has Prince been affected? A. Prince, he talks about his father sometimes. But he has a lot of company with his cousins and things, and he doesn't show his emotions that much.

ww

Q. He's more subdued? A. Yes.

m .co

Q. Can you tell he misses his father? A. Oh, yes, he does.

so n

Q. Now, Paris. Let me show 1035-1 (indicating). Paris. Did she used to take one of Michael's shirts and do something with it?

Q. How has Paris been affected by the loss of her father?

ck

A. Yes. She took his pajama top when he first died, and she didn't want anybody to wash it. She said, "I want it just the way daddy wore it. I want his scent on it." she put it in a pillow, and she put a bell around it, and she sat it on her bed, and that's the way she wanted it.

Q. She had a hard time? A. She had a very hard time at first.

A. Pardon?

M ich

Q. Has she had to get medical help?

ae lJa

A. Oh, my goodness. She -- one of my grandchildren told me that she would tell them that she wanted to go where daddy was.

Q. Has she had to get medical help? A. Yes. Q. Go to the hospital?

am

A. Yes.

Q. Has she had a really hard time with the loss of her father? A. Yes.

Te

Q. How about Blanket?

A. Blanket was young. He was seven when Michael died. He's 11 now. He's come a long way.

w.

Q. How often was he with his father?

ww

A. Everywhere Michael went. The other kids were in school, so everywhere Michael went, he took Blanket with him. Q. Let me show exhibit 1036-1 (indicating). Is that Blanket?

m .co so n ck ae lJa M ich am

A. That's Blanket.

Te

Q. He still have long hair? A. Yes.

w.

Q. Does he like long hair? A. He don't want to cut it because that's the way Michael liked it. He's 11, but he's going to have to cut it sooner or later.

ww

Q. You don't want him with long hair? A. I don't want the long hair, but he doesn't want to cut it so I'm not going to do it to him yet.

A. My goodness. More than anything else.

m

so n

Q. Did you have occasion to talk with him and observe him with children?

.co

Q. Let's talk about Michael being a father. Do you know if he wanted to be a father?

A. Yes. Talked to him a lot. Q. How would you describe Michael as a father?

ck

A. He's one of the best fathers. You'd be surprised. You would really be surprised at what a good father he was. He cooked for them. He did all these things. And he never cooked before, but the kids think it's the best food they ever tasted.

ae lJa

Q. Did Michael's writing of music change at all after he had children? A. Yes, it did. Q. How?

M ich

A. Well, his music was more, I should say, loving, more meaningful. He wrote from his heart more. It just changed his life, and it reflected in his music. Q. Is there a song that he wrote that's very special to you after his children were born? A. After? Q. After the children.

Q. Yeah.

am

A. Were born, you said?

A. I can't think of anything like -- Speechless.

Te

Q. I know he Wrote that song, Speechless? A. Yes.

w.

Q. What is that song about?

ww

A. That song's about the love a person had for their children. And when it comes to describing it, you're speechless, because there are no words to compare to how you feel. Q. And did Michael write that song in a long time or a short time?

m .co

A. In 45 minutes. Q. Do you know where he was?

so n

A. He was somewhere on the road. And Grace told me – Mr. Putnam: Objection. Calls for hearsay, your honor. (STFU PUTNAM!) Judge: Sustained. Grace told her.

ck

Mr. Panish: That's fine. That's okay.

ae lJa

Q. Let's ask: Did you go through some videos and pictures to make something, a tribute to Michael of him with his children with the song that he wrote about children? A. Yes.

Q. And did you -- what's the name of the song? A. "speechless."

M ich

Q. Okay. I'm going to mark 1025. And I'm just going to play it.

(Plaintiffs' exhibit no. 1025, a video clip of Speechless, was marked for identification) Q. Is that one of your favorite songs?

am

A. Pardon?

Q. Is that one of your favorite songs? A. Yes.

Te

Q. Okay. Let's take a look at that. (a video clip is played)

w.

Q. Mrs. Jackson, do you miss your son?

ww

A. Words can't explain it.

Mr. Panish: Okay. That's all the questions I have. Thank you.

m .co

Judge: Okay. Cross-examination. Cross-examination by Marvin Putnam:

so n

Q. You okay, Mrs. Jackson? A. Yes.

A. Yes.

A. Pardon? Q. Prior to being here today -A. Yes.

ae lJa

Q. Prior to being here today, Mrs. Jackson --

ck

Q. If at any point you need a break for any reason, would you please just let me know, ma'am?

M ich

Q. -- did you have the opportunity to go over your testimony here today with your attorney? A. Yes.

Q. And so you went through the things, and what was going to be shown, and the questions asked; correct? A. Not today, but yesterday.

A. No.

am

Q. We haven't had that opportunity, have we?

Te

Q. And so as a result, I'm going to be going through different places. If you don't understand my question or anything, could you please just let me know? A. Yes, I will.

w.

Q. All right. Thank you, ma'am. You initiated this lawsuit against AEG Live; correct? A. Yes.

ww

Q. And do you remember when you filed this lawsuit, ma'am? A. I don't remember the exact time.

m

.co

Q. If I were to tell you that it was in September of 2010, would that sound right to you? A. That's about right.

so n

Q. And you brought this lawsuit on behalf of yourself; correct? A. Yes.

Q. And you also brought it as the guardian to Mr. Jackson's three children; correct?

ck

A. Yes.

A. Yes, it was.

ae lJa

Q. And was it your choice, Mrs. Jackson, to bring this lawsuit?

Q. And did you ever talk to Mr. Jackson's children about whether or not to bring this lawsuit? A. I never talked to the children about it.

A. Yes.

M ich

Q. Okay. So this was your decision alone; correct?

Q. Did you ever discuss it with any of your children prior to bringing the lawsuit? A. After.

Q. After. And what about with your husband, Joe Jackson? Did you discuss it with him?

am

A. No, I never did.

Q. So did you discuss this with anybody besides your attorneys prior to bringing the lawsuit?

Te

A. I don't think so. I can't remember that, doing anything like that. My husband doesn't live with me, so I didn't discuss it with him. Q. And you brought this lawsuit, you said, despite the fact that you're a very private person; correct, ma'am?

w.

A. Yes, I am.

Q. And -- but you have lived a very public life for the last 40 years, have you not, ma'am?

ww

A. How many? Q. 40.

m

.co

A. My family's famous. I haven't lived a very public life because I was always in the background. Q. But you have given interviews on Dateline, haven't you?

so n

A. Yes, I have. Q. On 20/20? A. Yes.

ck

Q. 60 Minutes?

Q. Oprah? A. Yes. That was after my son died.

ae lJa

A. Yes.

Q. And what about -- you've come out with books; correct? A. Pardon?

M ich

Q. You've come out with books, ma'am? A. Yes.

Q. Including the story of your life? A. Yes.

A. Yes.

am

Q. You've gone on book tours?

Q. And so when you say that your life is private, I just want to understand what you meant by that.

Te

A. I don't understand your question. Q. Well --

w.

A. What --

Q. Excuse me, ma'am?

ww

A. My life is private as much as I can keep it private. Q. And you said a couple times that you're nervous, and I was hoping to understand why, ma'am. Why

m .co

are you nervous?

A. I'm up here talking in front of all these people. I don't know them. And I imagine anyone would be nervous at first. I'm a little more calm now.

A. Yes.

ck

Q. And is that what you're hoping will come out of this lawsuit?

so n

Q. Okay. And you said that you brought the lawsuit because you wanted to search for the truth; is that right, ma'am?

M ich

ae lJa

A. I want to find out, and I think I owe it to my son to find out what really happened to him. I've had -heard a lot of stories, and I know and I even heard from my grandchildren after my son died that my son was being pressured, and he was asking for his father. And the kids would tell him he didn't know what to do. My son was sick, and nobody is like -- I can't think of -- Kenny Ortega said they wouldn't even hand him a hot cup of tea, and they knew he was sick. And instead of calling -- nobody said, "Let's call the doctor. Let's see what's wrong with him." Nobody said that. And I was sitting there listening, and I was wondering, and I was sitting there listening to all the names they called. That's hard for me, sitting in court and listening to them call my son a freak, saying he was lazy. And not too long ago, couple days last week, I had -- no, I was -- this week I had to listen to a lot of things, talking about how broke he was. He didn't take a dime home. But if you know he didn't take a dime home, why didn't you look further and see that why he didn't take a dime home? He gave it to charity, and he gave a lot of things to charity. Q. And I apologize, ma'am. I don't quite understand it. When you say "she said," who are you talking about? A. You know who I'm talking about?

am

Q. Who are you talking about, ma'am? Mr. Panish: Ms. Strong.

Te

Q. Oh, you mean the woman asking the questions? A. It hurts to sit here in court and listen to all these things about him, defining him as a freak and all of that. It's hard for me. And then listening to how sick my son was and nobody was trying to help him.

w.

Q. Now, during this time period, ma'am, you've been here most days, have you not, for the last 12 weeks?

ww

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And you do understand that the people who were called as witnesses in the last 12 weeks were called by your attorney; correct?

m .co

A. Yes.

Mr. Panish: Vague and ambiguous as to time. The witness: No, not --

ck

Judge: Overruled.

so n

Q. And, ma'am, when you talk about people calling the doctors, I mean, you've heard people testify about trying to reach the doctor or reach the doctor or call the doctor? Did you hear that, ma'am? Did you hear the testimony?

Mr. Panish: Never mind. Go ahead.

ae lJa

The witness: Not -- not outside doctors. My son needed another doctor, not Dr. Murray. Q. But you hadn't met Dr. Murray ever; correct, ma'am? A. No, I hadn't.

M ich

Q. But you did hear testimony here saying your son had been using Dr. Murray as his physician since 2006, didn't you, ma'am? A. That doctor was for his children, but I didn't know who he was. I had heard from grace that they had got a doctor. And later I heard that it was Dr. Murray. I didn't know. Q. So you had heard from Ms. Rwaramba that a doctor had been had; is that correct, ma'am? A. From who?

am

Q. Ms. Rwaramba. Grace. You had heard that from her?

A. I had heard when the children were sick that somebody got a doctor in vegas for them.

Te

Q. When you say that it's hard to sit here and listen to people say these things, and you mentioned now a couple times the idea of your son being lazy, you also heard Mr. Gongaware explain that what he meant by that was that your son didn't like to rehearse. You did hear that; correct, ma'am? A. All I heard was "lazy." maybe he was talking about rehearse, but he's not lazy.

w.

Q. I understand that. I'm asking, did you hear what Mr. Gongaware actually meant by those words? A. Yes.

ww

Q. And you heard what he said; that he was talking about the fact that Mr. Jackson historically didn't like to rehearse?

m .co

A. Mr. Jackson was sick, and he couldn't rehearse.

Q. Well, for example, you heard the testimony, did you not, ma'am, where it talks about the fact that he didn't like to rehearse for the dangerous tour?

so n

A. Yes.

Q. And did you hear the testimony where he said he didn't like to rehearse for the history tour? A. No.

ck

Q. No? And --

ae lJa

A. No. I had heard from the tour that he's taking -- was taking now. I never heard he was lazy for the other tours. Michael never rehearsed a lot, because he knew what he was doing, and he knew -- and he was part of creating the dances and all of that, so he didn't need that much rehearsing. Q. I fact, he often didn't rehearse because he was doing the same dances that he had created; correct, ma'am? A. Yes.

M ich

Q. And if you recall, the email that Mr. Gongaware wrote, he wrote prior to Mr. Jackson starting the tour rehearsals for the This Is It tour, talking about the idea that he had been lazy on prior tours because he didn't rehearse. You remember that testimony, ma'am? A. No, I don't. I remember him talking about him being lazy, and a lot of things I didn't hear because that hurts, and I closed my ears to it. Q. Okay. But you do want to know the truth; right, ma'am?

am

A. I want to know the truth what happened to him.

Q. And you said that it's hard to sit here and listen to all these untrue, bad things. What were the other untrue, bad things that you've heard in the last 12 weeks?

Te

A. I can't remember. I just know they were bad things. Q. Okay. But other than the "lazy," you don't remember what that was; is that correct, ma'am?

w.

Mr. Panish: Other than what she already testified to? Mr. Putnam: Uh-huh. Yes, sir.

ww

The witness: Thank you. Q. Is that correct, ma'am?

m .co

A. What's correct?

Q. That when you said that it's hard to sit here and listen to these bad things, one mentioned the idea -the email where Mr. Gongaware said that he was lazy, and I'm asking you if you can remember what other bad, untrue things you've heard in the last 12 weeks?

so n

A. They called him a freak. Q. And you're talking about the email --

ck

A. They were making fun of him. "Finally get a chance to meet the freak." Q. And are you talking --

ae lJa

A. And you know --

Q. You're talking about an email from someone who isn't a party to this lawsuit; correct, ma'am? That was somebody outside of the Defendants in the lawsuit who said that. Do you remember that, ma'am? Mr. Panish: I'm going to object. It's not outside the defense. It's the general counsel lawyer. Mr. Putnam: No, it's not general counsel.

Mr. Putnam: Not true. Judge: Overruled.

M ich

Mr. Panish: It was AEG's general counsel --

Mr. Panish: -- Mr. Fikre.

am

Mr. Putnam: Fikre.

Mr. Panish: Yeah. Mr. Trell's boss. Mr. Putnam: Not Mr. Trell's boss.

Te

Q. Do you recall that, Mrs. Jackson, that it was actually sent to somebody at AEG Live, not sent from AEG Live? You remember that, ma'am?

w.

A. I don't know who it was, but I'm just saying that it's hard to sit here and listen to it.

ww

Q. And I understand that, ma'am. I do. I'm just trying to understand. You said it's hard to listen to the untruths, and you're looking for a search to the truth, and I'm trying to think of what untrue things you heard, ma'am. A. He's not a freak.

m .co

Q. Anything else, ma'am?

A. My son is dead. He's not here to talk for himself, so anything bad that's said about him hurts very much.

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Q. But -A. And some people love doing that to him. Q. Doing that to your son?

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A. Yes.

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Q. In fact, that was one of the hard things for you, I'm sure, the last four years of all the bad things that were said about your son; correct, ma'am? A. Yes.

Q. And that's because people didn't know the Michael Jackson you knew; correct, ma'am? A. True.

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Q. They only knew what they saw externally; they didn't know what he was actually like privately; correct, ma'am? A. Yes.

Q. In your attorney's opening statements, he said that your son, Michael Jackson, was a drug addict. You remember when he said that? Mr. Panish: Objection. Misstates what I said.

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Judge: Overruled. The jury will remember whatever you said. Q. Remember that, ma'am?

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A. No, I don't remember that.

Q. Do you remember in opening statements when your attorney talked about the idea that they would not deny the fact that your son had trouble with drugs?

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A. You know, I don't remember. But my son was on prescription drugs, but it doesn't make it true about what other drugs they say he's on, because all his drugs -- because if he had probleMs.

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Q. And that's what I wanted to ask you, ma'am, because you said it was hard to sit here and listen to the things untrue. And I was wondering if one of the things that was untrue was what your attorney said about his problem in opening statements about his problem with drugs?

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A. Yes, it would be hard to listen to. Q. So that was hard to listen to as well; correct, ma'am? A. I don't even remember him saying that, to tell you the truth.

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Q. You don't, ma'am? A. No.

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Q. Okay. Let's go back to this lawsuit, ma'am. So in September of 2010 you brought this lawsuit; correct, ma'am? A. Yes.

A. I don't know. Q. You don't remember that, ma'am? A. No.

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Q. And one of the people you sued was Kenny Ortega, wasn't it?

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Q. At the time -- but only you decided to bring this lawsuit?

A. There was a list of people, but I can't remember who all was on the list. Q. And one of those people -- I'll represent to you, ma'am, that one of those people was Kenny Ortega; okay? A. Okay.

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Q. Do you remember why you brought a lawsuit against Kenny Ortega? A. That was all part of --

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Q. I'm sorry, ma'am? A. Forget it.

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Q. Forget what, ma'am? Can I have the question reread for you, ma'am? A. Pardon?

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Q. Would you like me to have the question reread? Would that be helpful? A. No. It wouldn't be helpful.

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Q. It wouldn't be helpful? A. No. Q. Why is that, ma'am? Is it because you don't know why?

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Mr. Panish: Your honor, I would object. Anything discussion with her attorneys and such, that's protected. Judge: If it concerns discussions with her attorneys, then that would be privileged.

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Mr. Putnam: I didn't ask -- I asked her why she brought the lawsuit.

Mr. Panish: If it's things her and her attorneys discussed, it's privileged.

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Judge: Ma'am, would it involve the discussions you had with your attorneys? The witness: Yes.

Mr. Panish: That's an unverified complaint filed by the lawyers. Judge: All right.

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Q. Did you have an understanding that the time came where you dropped your lawsuit against Kenny Ortega? Mr. Panish: Same objection.

Judge: Sustained. Will you stipulate that that's what happened? Mr. Panish: We already brought that up already. It's in evidence. Everybody knows that.

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Judge: Is there a stipulation that Kenny Ortega was sued and dropped from the lawsuit voluntarily? Mr. Panish: Absolutely. We went through that with Mr. Ortega.

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Judge: All right.

Q. Did you have an understanding when the time came that you dropped your lawsuit against Kenny Ortega?

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Mr. Panish: Other than if you learned it from the lawyers.

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Mr. Putnam: It's a fact, your honor, that it would not be protected that you dropped a lawsuit against someone. Judge: He's stipulating to it. Are you refusing to accept the stipulation?

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Mr. Putnam: I accept the stipulation. I want to know if she knew that. Mr. Panish: It's irrelevant.

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Judge: Sustained. The stipulation accepted. The jury has to accept it. It's true; it's stipulated. And it's also 12:00. So 1:30. (The jury exits the courtroom) Judge: Okay. 1:30.

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(Lunch break)

(The following proceedings were heard in open court, outside the presence of the jury):

Judge: Okay. We'll do as much as we can.

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Mr. Panish: Ms. Jackson got less than three hours sleep, she was sleeping at lunch, I think an hour or so will probably be her limit. Mr. Putnam suggests hours, so I don't think we'll finish today. I informed Mr. Putnam of that.

Mr. Panish: Okay. I just don't want her to be too tired.

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(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors): Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. You may continue with cross examination Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor.

Continued cross examination by Marvin Putnam:

A. Yes.

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Q. Mrs. Jackson, you remember earlier, before lunch, I indicated if you had to stop at any time, we could, right, ma'am?

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Q. And I've been told that you'd like to go only about another hour today; is that correct, ma'am? A. Yes.

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Q. So I'm going to try to get a little bit in there; and then in about an hour, we'll break. All right, ma'am? A. Yes, thank you.

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Q. So where we left off, you had indicated that in -- in bringing this lawsuit, you hadn't spoken to your grandchildren and you hadn't spoken to your siblings and you couldn't remember conferring with anyone else before you brought the lawsuit except your attorneys; is that correct, ma'am?

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A. Yes. Q. And this was in September of 2010?

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A. I don't remember, but you remind me.

Q. Okay. If I were to represent to you that it was September 15, 2010, would that sound right, ma'am? A. Sounds right.

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Q. And can you recall that this was before there had been a criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray? A. No. I think it was after. I'm not sure.

A. I'm not sure. Q. You just don't remember?

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A. No.

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Q. If I were to let you know that the criminal trial was the following year, that would -- would that come as a surprise to you, ma'am?

Q. Because you did attend the criminal trial, correct, ma'am? A. Yes, I did.

Q. And you tried to attend that almost every day? A. Pardon?

A. Yes.

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Q. Almost every day?

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Q. Is it fair to say, ma'am, that the criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray didn't play in in any way in your decision to bring this action here?

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Mr. Panish: Objection, your honor. Again, calls for discussions of attorney. All this is attorney/client. She's already said that she didn't discuss it with anyone other than her attorneys, so any information she would have would be from her attorneys.

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Mr. Putnam: Your honor, information, as you know, is not privileged. There are facts that are facts. That said, your honor, what I am asking is I assume she made an independent decision as to whether or not to bring this lawsuit; and in so doing, I'm asking whether the criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray played any role in her determination to bring this lawsuit.

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Mr. Panish: But if she discussed it with her attorneys --

Judge: Well, what you can do is perhaps phrase it, "independent of any conversations you've had --" Mr. Putnam: I'd be happy to. Absolutely, your honor.

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Judge: If there is no independent, then --

Q. So, Mrs. Jackson -- well, let me ask it this way: Did you consider anything in bringing this lawsuit independent of your discussions with your attorneys?

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A. Yes.

A. After watching. Q. After watching?

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Q. You did. And did that include the criminal trial of Dr. Conrad Murray?

Mr. Panish: Objection; the lawsuit was filed. He said before the criminal trial, so how could it have anything to do with this?

Judge: Overruled.

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Mr. Putnam: That's why I'm asking.

The witness: I don't understand a lot of things you're saying. I hear you, but -Mr. Putnam: Let me try to break it down for you a little bit. Okay, ma'am?

A. Yes.

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Q. You filed your lawsuit in September of 2010, correct?

Q. And if I understand correctly, you didn't consider anything -- you didn't have conversations with anyone other than your attorneys about bringing that lawsuit, correct?

Te

A. Just -- just the attorneys.

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Q. Just the attorneys, right, ma'am? There was nobody else you talked about your considerations in bringing a lawsuit prior to bringing the lawsuit, correct? A. Correct.

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Q. And when you were thinking about whether or not to bring that lawsuit, was a consideration at that time the fact that Dr. Conrad Murray was going to be having a criminal trial? Mr. Panish: Non- -- incomprehensible. Everything was with the discussions with her attorneys. How

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could something else be a factor?

Judge: If it's independent of the attorney/client -- you need to make it clear to her so she's -- the fear is that she's going to inadvertently disclose communications with her attorney, so --

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Mr. Putnam: Let me be very clear, Ms. Jackson. I don't want to know anything that you discussed with your attorneys ever. All right, ma'am? Before the lawsuit or after the lawsuit. That's not what I'm asking for. What I'm trying to determine, ma'am, is your independent considerations, what you yourself thought about outside of those conversations with your attorneys.

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Q. Was there anything that you considered except what was given to you by your attorneys in terms of bringing this lawsuit?

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Mr. Panish: I'm going to object to "What was given to you." I mean, we just discussed -- there -- I object to the question, "given to." Judge: Overruled.

The witness: I'm getting confused the way he's asking the questions.

A. Repeat yourself.

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Q. Was there anything you thought about other than your discussions with your attorneys when you decided to bring this lawsuit, ma'am?

Q. Of course. Was there anything other than your discussions with your attorneys that you considered in deciding to bring this lawsuit in September of 2010? A. Before conrad Murray's trial?

Q. It was, in fact, before Dr. Conrad Murray's trial, ma'am, yes.

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A. I don't remember.

Q. All right. And is it fair to say as you sit here today, ma'am, that you don't remember whether Dr. Conrad Murray's trial was before or after you brought your lawsuit?

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A. You're the one that got me confused. Q. How did I get you confused? Did I get you confused --

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A. I just don't remember.

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Q. Did I get you confused because I let you know that the lawsuit with Dr. Conrad Murray was after your lawsuit? Is that what confused you? Mr. Panish: First of the all, there's no lawsuit.

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Mr. Putnam: Criminal trial. Mr. Panish: It's also irrelevant. Mr. Putnam: I don't believe it's irrelevant, your honor.

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Mr. Panish: Relevant for what?

Judge: Overruled. Okay. Why don't you just stipulate that that's the time frame?

Mr. Putnam: Move to strike, your honor, his comments.

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Mr. Panish: We already did. They know when the case was filed. He's already testified.

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Mr. Panish: Mr. Putnam has already said the dates. We're not disputing the dates. Again, there's no issue about that. Mr. Putnam: I'm trying to understand her reasons support bringing the lawsuit, your honor. Mr. Panish: Her reasons for bringing --

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Mr. Putnam: I'm sure you'd like to say what they are. And what I'm trying to determine is if there's anything independent of the conversation she had with these attorneys that was relevant to bringing this lawsuit. Judge: Well, you've asked a couple of times. I'll let you ask it one more time, but you've asked a couple times already. But -Mr. Putnam: And I haven't gotten an answer yet, I'm trying to figure out a way to ask it -Mr. Panish: She has answered the question.

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Judge: Ask it one more time.

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Q. Mrs. Jackson, except for conversations that you had with your attorneys, was there anything independent of that that you considered when deciding to bring your lawsuit -- this lawsuit in September of 2010? A. I don't remember.

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Q. So this lawsuit starts in September of 2010. Do you remember that once the lawsuit started, each of the sides asked the other side for information and gave each other documents? Do you remember anything about that, ma'am?

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A. Yes.

Q. And do you recall your providing any documents to the Defendants in this case, you yourself, ma'am?

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A. Can you repeat your -Mr. Panish: You mean through her attorneys?

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Mr. Putnam: Yes, through her attorneys.

Judge: Make it clear. Because she's not going to be walking over to your office and handing them to you, so make it clear that --

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Q. Mrs. Jackson, did you provide any documents to your attorneys so that they could give them to us in the three years between the start of this lawsuit and our being at trial in this lawsuit? A. My documents?

Judge: Overruled. The witness: Yes. Q. You gave some documents?

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A. No, no, no, I'm not saying "yes" for you.

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Mr. Panish: Wait a minute. Wouldn't that be attorney/client privilege, what she provided to us?

Mr. Putnam: Okay. You're answering his question. Go ahead. Judge: Repeat the question. Mr. Putnam: Okay.

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Q. Are you able to go on today, Mrs. Jackson? Is it too hard to go on today? Judge: How are you doing.

(The witness speaks to the Judge in undertone)

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Judge: I think she's probably had enough today. Why don't we recess for today. She's tired, so I think it's a good time. Let me just find out when I need to call you back. Okay? 9:30 on Monday. Thank you. Don't talk about the case, discuss the case, or read anything about the case.

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(The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the jurors): Judge: Does someone want to assist the witness down?

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Mr. Panish: I'll help. The witness: I was getting confused. I'm tired.

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Mr. Panish: That's okay.

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Judge: Well, I just would make a suggestion. Just try to be clear with some of the questions because, obviously -- break them down a little bit, especially when she's – it's toward the end of the day, and she's getting tired. Mr. Panish: It's very fast, the questions. Not that they're unusually fast; but maybe for someone for that age, it might be better to slow down the questions and break them down a little bit.

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Judge: It might be --

Mr. Panish: I'm going to start objecting. I mean, a lot of this stuff, you know, we're getting contentions -- we'll deal with it later.

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Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, it's not unfair or improper to ask a witness why she brought the lawsuit, and I think that's all that was trying to be asked. Mr. Panish: Why -- whatever. We'll deal with -Ms. Chang: We have the case law for it.

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Mr. Panish: We'll deal with it Monday. I don't need to respond.

Ms. Stebbins: Speaking of Monday, your honor, obviously, Plaintiffs have not completed their case today. Assuming Mrs. Jackson finishes Monday, do Plaintiffs intend to rest Monday? I ask because -Mr. Panish: No, we're not resting because Mr. Ortega hasn't finished. Our case doesn't rest. And we still have the issue regarding Grace Rwaramba that you and Ms. Chang have talked about. But after Mrs. Jackson, I think you should have witnesses ready to go on Monday.

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Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I think we should probably talk about if they have multiple additional witnesses. What I was going to say is they filed designations of video for one of Defendants' experts, roma Young; we filed objections to that as cumulative. Mr. Panish: We're not --

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Judge: I saw that. I was surprised to see that.

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Ms. Stebbins: And we're still working on, you know, they want to have argument on Mr. Taylor. And if they want to call -- she just mentioned Ms. Rwaramba. My understanding is that she's available next week; so if that's the case, I would rather she be finished with their case; and then if Mr. Ortega is outstanding, that's one thing, but I don't want there to be a bunch of witnesses outstanding. I'm just kind of confused as to where Plaintiffs are at.

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Ms. Chang: I think our understanding at the deposition was stated clearly; and I think we had an agreement that Ms. Rwaramba had to receive medical treatment for her condition, we all agreed she would have time to review and correct anything in her transcript before we could call her. We had an

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agreement that we placed on the record, and that time period hasn't expired yet.

Judge: Is she going to be designated or appearing live?

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Ms. Stebbins: Monday was the day she was supposed to review. The impression I got from her counsel was that she would be available to testify next week. I'm not positive, but we should confirm that, because if she is -- and there are some issues with her testimony that we may be addressing, but --

Mr. Panish: Is this privileged, privacy for her?

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Ms. Chang: We have to check with her attorney, depending -- just so the court knows, she has a very serious lupus condition --

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Ms. Chang: I guess I shouldn't state it, but I'll put it in a brief under seal, but she has some severe health issues, and I have to address them with her attorney. Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I don't think there's any way she could appear by designation. The whole purpose of her deposition, if you'll recall, was she was not deposed during discovery. She testified she actively evaded discovery. She then -- Plaintiffs said they wanted to add her to the list. Apparently at the time they said they had been communicating with her for a couple of months. Ms. Chang: Not true.

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Ms. Stebbins: They then arranged this deposition. My -- I was under the understanding at the time it was going to be a deposition for both sides to prepare for her trial testimony, so -- and I actually did not ask questions on -- I did not conduct a cross examination at the deposition, in part because Plaintiffs' counsel assured me she'd be appearing live. Designation would be appropriate here, since the only reason she was deposed is because she came forward and said even though we're late, I want to testify live.

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Mr. Putnam: That's important to note, just to remember, your honor, this is after we had started trial, they came and said, "Can we add somebody?" Judge: I remember.

Te

Mr. Putnam: And you said, "You can add them as long as you get to depose them." it was not that they get to depose them and then put her on not live. Judge: Why didn't you cross, then?

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Ms. Chang: She did, for hours. Ms. Stebbins: I asked questions, your honor; but it was an exploratory deposition with -- my understanding -- we can argue this --

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Mr. Panish: We don't need to argue this right now. Ms. Stebbins: Here's the issue, your honor, in a nutshell. I was trying to get what the sense of her

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Ms. Stebbins: Exactly, your honor.

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Mr. Panish: That doesn't matter.

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Judge: It wasn't trial preservation testimony.

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testimony was in preparation for live testimony. She stated several times on the record she intended to testify live. At one point, I was looking for something and Plaintiffs' counsel, during a break -- not Ms. Chang, but her colleague -- said, "why are you even bothering asking her this? You can cover it all on cross examination when she testifies." bring up for obvious reasons, because it was a deposition, I was trying to understand what her testimony was going to be. It was not -- to my understanding --

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Mr. Putnam: Nor would it be appropriate to have such a thing because the only reason they were added after trial started -- they said, "We want to add her to our trial list," and you said, "You only get to do that if defense gets to depose her before you do so." to then use that as a backdoor method to now have something to put forward in this court in terms of deposition testimony on video is absolutely inappropriate. Ms. Chang: Can we just state one thing? I think this is premature because I haven't talked to her attorney yet, and I don't know how everything went. She is not a citizen of the state of California. She lives outside the state, so there's problem number 1. When that woman chooses --

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Judge: Like Mr. Anschutz.

Mr. Panish: Exactly, who they refuse to bring.

Ms. Chang: So there are issues involved. And I think what we should do is we should -- I will use this coming, when can she come, does she agree to come. I understand that, you know, from her attorney that she found the questioning grueling, and I think that what we will do is just find out. It's not worth fighting about now or talking about now. We'll just cross that bridge when we come; I will call her attorney as soon as I get out, and I'll try to find out what the status is.

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Ms. Stebbins: Again, our understanding was that she would be testifying live, she stated that at her deposition, that was the only reason we had the deposition was under that assumption. There's going to be significant issues if she's testifying anything other than live. But we don't need to worry about that at this point.

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Mr. Panish: Then why bring it up? Judge: That's why I was kind of surprised when I saw her designation that was filed.

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Ms. Stebbins: No. That was Ms. Young. Ms. Chang: I was going to say I'd be impressed if someone designated her. Wow, cesar, good.

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Ms. Stebbins: Just now is the first I have heard that Ms. Rwaramba might not be testifying live. That is completely different from my understanding.

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Judge: I was surprised to see Young there because Plaintiffs have never mentioned Young before.

Ms. Stebbins: We were, too, your honor. And we filed an objection today because we believed that would be cumulative. But we don't want to begin our case without knowing that they've finished theirs.

Mr. Panish: It happens like every trial.

Mr. Panish: And they already did start their case.

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Judge: They're not always that nice and neat and tied up in a bow.

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Judge: Sometimes you have to.

Judge: That's fine.

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Ms. Stebbins: But we'd like to have some idea, your honor, is there one witness outstanding? Two? Four?

Mr. Panish: They already did start their case. The way these things go, they had to call witnesses in our case, if we recall that. So when they say, "We don't want to start our case," they already started it a long time ago by calling out of order two witnesses because of scheduling.

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Judge: Yes. The point being -Mr. Panish: I understand the point.

Judge: -- they want to know how many you have left. Mr. Panish: That's not a problem.

Ms. Stebbins: We're not trying to be inflexible if there's legitimate scheduling issues.

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Mr. Panish: The only issue that I know right now, other than -- Ms. Rwaramba, would be it. I don't know of any other. Judge: Ortega.

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Mr. Panish: Ortega and Rwaramba. Ms. Stebbins: So not Ms. Young?

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Mr. Boyle: We're going to review your objections and let you know. Mr. Panish: Other than that, that I know of at this point, subject to ortega, nothing else.

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Judge: What is roma Young? Ms. Stebbins: A defense HR expert. We intend to call her live in our case at present, and I've told

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Plaintiffs' counsel that. Judge: So you want to call her in your case?

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Ms. Stebbins: They want to use a small portion of her video deposition to bolster their own HR expert out of context. It's cumulative of testimony by Mr. Trell and Ms. Seawright and a bit of detective martinez. There's no purpose to that. We've objected to it as cumulative, we've also provided counter designations should the court -Judge: That sounds cumulative; and if they're going to call her in their case --

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Mr. Panish: They didn't say there were.

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Mr. Boyle: We think their expert said some things that are helpful to us. If they're saying their expert is cumulative to ours, why can they call her? But I will look at their objections. And, also, they keep saying, "We intend to call her at present." if they -- I already told Ms. Stebbins if they are committing to calling her, we don't even need to fight this fight. But they, of course, are not committing to doing that.

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Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, what I told Mr. Boyle is at present we 100 percent intend to call her. There's always the possibility -- I don't know, it's the end of September and we're trying desperately to cut -- something may happen. I don't think we're going to get to that point, because our intention is to finish in august, as we said the other day; and I believe Ms. Young will be called during that period. That is my representation at this time. But her testimony, obviously, is not cumulative of Ms. Seawright's. It's contrary to Ms. Seawright's. They've gone through and cherry-picked a couple of points out of context to try to bolster Ms. Seawright. It's not proper and it's cumulative. Judge: If that's the case, probably not going to allow it in your case. It's cumulative. Mr. Panish: But you haven't heard anything.

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Judge: You're right, I haven't looked at it.

Mr. Boyle: Maybe a solution is if they don't call her, we raise it later, play this short video clip. Judge: Like rebuttal?

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Mr. Panish: I was reading the transcript -- just I want to clear something up because I wasn't here when there was a whole discussion about Dr. Brown's testimony. And I read the rough transcript, and Mr. Putnam was questioned by the court, "Are you calling Dr. Murray?" and the rough transcript said "We don't intend to call Dr. Murray unless we are requested to." Mr. Boyle: "Unless you request it, your honor."

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Mr. Panish: And now the other transcript has been changed to say something different. So what I would just like is some clarification on that issue. Because I thought you asked Mr. Putnam, and I wasn't here, so I'm only reading the transcript -- because this whole Dr. Murray -- I was reading the argument, and I thought it said, "Mr. Putnam, are you calling Dr. Murray?"

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Judge: I did ask that.

Mr. Panish: Okay. And Mr. Putnam gave a response on the record; and what I would like -- because the two transcripts are different, I would like to know what is the response.

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Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, we didn't ask for any modification of the rough, so I would assume the final transcript is what the court reporter took down and what was actually said. Judge: What did the final say?

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Mr. Boyle: It says "we -- I -- I personally do not intend to call Dr. Murray unless it's requested, your honor." what does that mean?

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Mr. Panish: But who is going to request it?

Mr. Putnam: I don't think I would say that, but I don't know -Judge: Even if you did, what's the significance?

Mr. Panish: I don't know. If we're going to rest --

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Judge: You have a doubt as to whether they are going to call him or not? Mr. Panish: That's all I want to know is the answer to the question.

Judge: I think the answer to the question is probably no. The answer has to be no. I don't know how they're going to get Murray out of custody and in here. Ms. Cahan: It also attributes it to me, and I did not answer that question.

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Mr. Panish: That's what I'm saying. There seemed to be an error in the transcript, and that's why I'm asking, for whatever reason. Judge: I'd be surprised if --

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Ms. Stebbins: Let's look at the final transcript. Mr. Panish: Well, what is the answer? You can just clarify it and then we don't have to worry about it.

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Mr. Putnam: Your honor asked me if my present intention was to call him; and as I indicated, my present intention was not to call him. Mr. Panish: That wasn't the question, whether it was your present intention.

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Mr. Putnam: She said, "Do you intend to call." I assume she meant at that point. Mr. Panish: Everything is like that with them.

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Mr. Putnam: Well, I suspect she wasn't saying a month from now, might I intend. She had to indicate what did I intend to do at the time. In my case, I do not intend to call --

Mr. Putnam: I agree.

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Judge: And so the likelihood of that happening, very, very low.

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Judge: Well, let's out it this way. If you intend to call Dr. Murray, there's a whole heck of a lot of other things that need to be done before that will happen; a very lengthy hearing, his attorney has to be present, there has to be all kinds of things that have to be done before he could testify. None of those things have been done.

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Mr. Putnam: Which is why I said at the time, your honor -- as you recall, the context in which it arose was because, as you know, for 12 weeks we have been trying to get the portion of Dr. Conrad Murray's interview with the LAPD in -- It was in that context that it arose, because you indicated that that portion was not going to come in because it was hearsay. If other portions did, that would depend on what else occurred; but that portion, there was no reason to bring it in. In that context, you said would I be bringing him; and as I said at the time, we were also talking about when we were going to end, I said we're going to end this at the end of august, which is why I said, as you're noting at the moment, there's a whole process. My present intention is not to call him, your honor.

Mr. Putnam: No.

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Mr. Panish: I understand it better, but he didn't tell us he was resting in august until the next day. So --

Mr. Panish: But whatever. Mr. Putnam said, now it's clear, I don't have to rely on the two transcripts, I'll take his word for what he said, and then thank you for clarifying that.

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Mr. Putnam: And when he's not available, he might ask his co-counsel who were here and heard what he said, your honor. Mr. Boyle: I heard it.

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Mr. Panish: Both transcripts are different, Mr. Putnam. That's why I asked. I read the transcripts, both of them; and that's why -- there is a difference, and that's why I asked. And I did ask them first, and they looked at the transcript --

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Judge: It's not a big deal. It's -- it's so unlikely to happen that I think you're overreacting, frankly. There's just so much that needs to be done in advance of such a hearing that -Mr. Panish: Fair enough. Thank you.

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Ms. Stebbins: So if I understand -Judge: It's not going to happen, I can tell you that. I just know what has to be done before something like that could occur. That's extremely unlikely.

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Ms. Stebbins: If I understand correctly with regard to Ms. Young, Plaintiffs are not going to call her now. If we do not call her in our case, they may raise the issue again, we'll still object to it as cumulative and raise it at that time.

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Mr. Boyle: Reserving all rights, yes.

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Ms. Cahan: Based on the representation that we're going to finish with Ms. Jackson, and Mr. Ortega and Ms. Rwaramba will be dealt with separately, we've been preparing to arrange witnesses for next week. In the context of that, we prepared some deposition designations. As your honor may remember, when we started the case, Plaintiffs' counsel designated 20 depositions, and we had 48 hours to do counters, designations and objections to those. They all got lodged with the court, and then they were unhappy with the designation counted as -- we had a difference of opinion. And on may 1st, your honor said, "Well, whatever you want to do with the designations, Plaintiffs, in essence, I'll give you a week to revise whatever you want, and then we'll do that." so but before that happened, we had essentially a five-day process that was discussed and agreed to at the final status conference where depositions were provided, there was 48 hours to do counter designations and objections, another 24 hours to do responses or objections to the counter designations, and then they would be filed and ruled on. On Monday evening, in preparation for next week, we sent Plaintiffs' counsel four deposition designations. One was one that we had sent them back in may, back when they said, you know, "We don't want to deal with these during our case, but we'll get whatever you need done quickly when it's time for Defendants to start their case." one of them didn't need to be modified because it had been sent over previously. The other three, they had for three days. We got one back at the end of the day yesterday. After a lengthy exchange of emails with Plaintiffs' counsel, they gave us a second one around 11:30 last night; and we haven't gotten the the two that we have have gotten back, which are Dr. Farshchian and Dr. Saunders, we've lodged the transcripts and given the combined charts to your honor. I think one was just filed at lunch. We would ask if you could please try to look those over quickly, we'd appreciate that, because we'd like to play those videos next week. Judge: I'll be looking over them as soon as I can.

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Ms. Cahan: We don't know when we'll be getting the third one back, Dr. Kazakhi.

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Mr. Boyle: They gave us four at 10:30 on Monday, we've given them three of the four back, and I got the fourth one in my email while Mrs. Jackson was on the stand, I haven't looked at it yet. Do I need to address the preamble that she gave? That's really not accurate, about the 48 hours and all that stuff. But if I don't need to address it, I won't.

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Ms. Cahan: What we would like, your honor, is some clarity going forward because we didn't expect that three short designation, giving them three days, would be a problem; and we just need to make sure that we're not going to be putting your honor under undue pressure or interrupting the flow of our case, and so maybe we need to reestablish an appropriate time frame.

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Judge: Well, how many more designations, depo -Ms. Cahan: We actually have quite a lot because we have so many physicians and people who are out of state. They are largely short. Most of them are between half an hour to an hour. And we're happy to

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send them on a rolling basis. There's one more that we would like to be able to play next week that we haven't sent over yet, we can do that today. But I think we just need some clarity on the process to make sure that the court has enough time, that we have enough time, and that Plaintiffs have enough time so that as we're sending them on a rolling basis, we have some kind of assurance that we'll be getting them back on a regular basis.

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Judge: Mr. Boyle -Mr. Boyle: Whatever the rule was, we're fine with.

Mr. Panish: It was five days, according to Ms. Strong.

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Ms. Cahan: 48 hours.

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Ms. Stebbins: At one point, we had a two-part system. After there was some concern with the initial timetable, which was 48 hours, it was then set up that it would be 48 hours for priority and five days for non-priority. I don't know whether that's workable with -- if it is, we can --

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Mr. Boyle: They're trying to shorten the time on us, which is fine. We said we'll work hard with them to help. They gave us four at 10:30 on Monday night, we got three of the four back, we're getting the fourth back, all within the five-day period that Ms. Strong demanded. So this is a non-issue that -- I think what they're asking you is they want a shorter time frame, is what they're asking, but they're afraid to ask it. Ms. Cahan: I would ask that we have the same arrangement that Plaintiffs had and they made us do -we did 18 sets of counter and objections on 48 hours notice in a one-week period, and that required a lot of our time to -Judge: Are you asking they do the same? You want to do 18 --

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Ms. Cahan: No, your honor. We want to be reasonable. We have fewer than 18 total, although we will be playing the ones that we'll be sending to Plaintiffs, unlike -- I think they played four out of of the 20 that -Mr. Panish: No. That's wrong.

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Mr. Boyle: We filed four, we played four. This thing, the reason we had to lodge so many on them -- I wanted to do it on a priority basis. They were insisting that they all be turned over for whatever reason, maybe they wanted to know what or intentions were with the case.

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Mr. Putnam: Not true.

Ms. Cahan: That's not true, but I think what we would ask is that Plaintiffs be held to what we were held, to which is 48 hours.

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Mr. Panish: It wasn't. Ms. Cahan: This is the second schedule that was agreed to, 48 hours for priority depositions, which

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the ones that we sent over this week were, although we gave them 72 hours, and five days for anything that's not a priority, and we will send them on a rolling basis -Judge: Is that acceptable or not? If not, what's your alternative?

Mr. Boyle: Most it. Judge: Mr. Boyle has been doing all this work on the depos.

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Judge: You're not doing it. Isn't Mr. Boyle doing it?

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Mr. Panish: I would say three days is fine --

Mr. Panish: They can't send it at 10:40 at night, your honor. It should be business hours.

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Judge: I'm sure they get it as soon as they can.

Mr. Panish: All of a sudden four of them come Monday night at 10:40? Ms. Cahan: My email was at 8:21 p.M., for the record. Judge: It's a busy trial day.

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Ms. Cahan: We're all working around the clock, we're doing things as soon as we can, and I wanted to get them to them Monday night as opposed to tuesday morning to give them more time to get it back to us. Mr. Boyle: It was kind of a busy week for us, your honor. Judge: I understand. You're busy trial lawyers, I get it. What I'm trying to get is whether -- Mr. Boyle, what can you work with? Can you work with that schedule?

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Mr. Boyle: I can work -- three days would be preferable; but if they are dying to fill a slot with a witness, just like they've done, they tell us, "look, we really want to play this one on x day," we will put it up and do it in two days.

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Ms. Cahan: 72 hours for all the counters and objections is fine for us, your honor. Judge: If there's an emergency, he said --

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Mr. Panish: All right. Forget it. No emergencies, then. Judge: Mr. Panish, like I said, Mr. Boyle is doing the work.

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Ms. Cahan: If there's an emergency, your honor, we'll raise it with you if there's a problem. Judge: Let him make the schedule for his --

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Mr. Panish: How do you know I'm not doing that? Judge: Because he's the one that's doing all the depos. Mr. Panish: Okay, your honor.

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Mr. Boyle: How about three and five? If they have a non-priority, they're probably not going to play it anyway. Ms. Cahan: We're only sending ones we intend to play.

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Mr. Panish: As of today. Present intention.

Judge: So, Mr. Boyle, I want you to recite what your agreement is.

Ms. Cahan: That's fine, your honor. Judge: Okay. Thank you.

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Mr. Boyle: Three days priority, five days non-priority. And if they have an urgent thing where they want it and it's a short one sooner than three days, we'll work with them and try to get it done.

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Mr. Panish: Now, on Monday, so we're going to finish Mrs. Jackson. I have no -- I don't know about Ms. Rwaramba. So then they would be calling witnesses or video? What is the plan? Ms. Cahan: We won't have video ready in time now. Mr. Panish: So you've got witnesses on Monday?

Ms. Stebbins: Let's try to figure out what's happening with Ms. Rwaramba because, obviously, the ideal would be that she go immediately after Mrs. Jackson. Otherwise --

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Mr. Putnam: I'll let you know tomorrow morning, 48-hour rule. I have to find someone for Monday if you're telling me that you're actually resting.

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Mr. Panish: I've been telling you that. That's okay. So they don't know who their witness will be, and they'll tell us tomorrow at 9:30. Mr. Putnam: Like we have been.

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Mr. Panish: Well, you haven't told us any because we've been the ones calling -Ms. Stebbins: Don't worry. We'll give you every bit of notice that we received.

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Judge: So whatever witness you call will be a lengthy witness or short witness or do you have any -Mr. Putnam: No, I don't think any of them will be lengthy, your honor.

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Judge: So you may have to call multiple witnesses?

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Mr. Putnam: Yes. The reason we're asking about the schedule, making sure the three and five and everything, is we're trying to make sure we can do this as efficiently as possible. And we're hoping to call many each day because we want to get through this. That's the present intent, which is also why on the front end we're trying to set it up to understand what the parameters are so we can properly schedule -- a number have been in a holding pattern because we had told almost all of them to free up the time period about a month ago. So it's a little later, so we're having a little more trouble than we expected in trying to get people into certain spots.

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Mr. Panish: If they ask us, we're certainly willing to work with them on scheduling a witness. Having had the pressure on us, we understand it's difficult. We're more than willing to work with them on any scheduling issues. If they need a video done in 24 hours because they don't have someone the next day, we're willing to work with them because it's also our intention to get this done as quickly as possible. We're more than happy to work with them. Ms. Stebbins: On the subject of Plaintiffs' case, your honor, the one outstanding issue, then, would be Mr. Taylor's deposition. Obviously, we think your tentative is correct; and I don't know if Plaintiff still wanted to use that deposition or if they wanted to argue that. But we if they wanted to do that, we should do it before their case closes. Judge: Let's talk about it now.

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Mr. Panish: Can we get our stuff together? Judge: Yes.

Mr. Putnam: In terms of our schedule, when will we know if you're calling Ms. Rwaramba on Monday? Ms. Chang: As soon as I can find out. I will email jessica. Is that okay?

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Ms. Stebbins: Yes. Obviously, we need some time to prep, so -Mr. Panish: We're going to tell you within the 48-hour rule, right? By 9:30 tomorrow. Is that the 48hours?

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Mr. Putnam: Yes; and then I will let you know as soon as I can thereafter if you will then be resting your case except for outstanding witnesses.

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Judge: This whole thing about you have to rest -Mr. Panish: That's not how it works.

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Judge: They don't have to formally rest for you to start calling your witnesses. Mr. Putnam: I agree, your honor.

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Judge: So if I tell you you put on a witness, you put on a witness. Mr. Putnam: And I will do that, your honor.

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Judge: They don't have to formally rest. Same thing -- wait a minute. Why are you two talking when I'm trying to address -Ms. Chang: I'm sorry. Mr. Putnam: Yes, your honor.

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Mr. Putnam: There are motions that come in.

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Judge: In order to move the trial along, we take the witnesses as they come. Okay? And they'll rest when appropriate. It's not going to affect anything. It's just a formality. There are motions for nonsuit, that --

Mr. Panish: But they'll still do the motions anyway. It doesn't matter.

Judge: So be prepared, is all I'm saying, and don't expect them to rest cleanly. There's going possible a dangling witness out there. It doesn't really make any difference.

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Mr. Putnam: That's what we're trying to ask, your honor. We're trying to ask -- we expect something to be dangling out there, and I'd like to know what that is. Mr. Panish: I would say this. I would be ready to call witnesses as soon as you think you're going to finish with Ms. Jackson, just in case. Ms. Stebbins: As Ms. Chang was just pointing out -- I did say that I would be flexible and work with Ms. Rwaramba with any scheduling issues; but at the same time, we would like her to go as soon as possible because since she's part of Plaintiffs' case.

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Ms. Chang: I apologize to the court. I didn't mean to be talking when you were talking. I was trying to work something out with Jessica -- well, Ms. Stebbins Bina, and I was reminding her of a conversation we had where we told the counsel because we knew she had treatment, she could have more time if she needed to review the transcript. It's three volumes, because it went on three different days. So basically she -- she has to review it, and I will find out, and I will communicate directly with her, and we will work together as we told her we would.

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Ms. Stebbins: At the close of the last day, your honor -- these were partial days, I got about four and a half hours. But at the close of the day, Ms. Rwaramba and her counsel represented that they would review the transcript on Monday and sign off on it by Monday. I don't have any reason to believe that's not the case. At this point, perhaps Ms. Chang knows something I don't.

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Ms. Chang: I know nothing. I've been here. Ms. Stebbins: I expect the deposition transcript will be finalized on Monday so she can go --

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Ms. Chang: I'm just reminding everybody that we had indicated if she needs more time, we're happy to work with her. So I have no idea, she has no idea. I will find out and communicate with the other side. Mr. Panish: Who is her lawyer?

Mr. Panish: Why don't you just call him?

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Ms. Chang: Dan Dunbar.

Ms. Chang: I will. Can I be excused, your honor, to work on that?

Judge: Yes. Did you get all the items you needed for the robert Taylor motion? Mr. Panish: Yes, I think so. Mr. Boyle: Yes. Judge: This is a while ago.

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Mr. Boyle: Your honor, we read your tentative and understand the court's position. Our position is simply that Mr. Taylor testified to an inconsistent statement of Mr. Trell regarding AEG employing Dr. Murray. Mr. Taylor was asked questions, "So this was Shawn Trell telling you that AEG Was employing Dr. Conrad Murray on the instruction of --" Answer, "of Michael." Question, "of Mr. Jackson?" Answer, "Correct." So that was our intention for using Mr. Day elementary, along with some other things regarding the insurance. It was a different case, obviously. It was a case that AEG Had been involved in. We believe their interests were still represented because of their Co-Defendant was still in the case at the time of this deposition, represented by counsel, who also represented AEG In that litigation. So we believe they, in essence, had representation at that deposition which, under the rules, would allow us to use that in our case.

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Mr. Panish: Your honor, just -- in 1192, it looks at the interest of the party as to whether or not a deposition can be used because AEG was a party in the case. They were also represented at the time by the same lawyer that continued in the case. Mr. Putnam: That's not true.

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Mr. Panish: Excuse me. Mr. Putnam was actually involved in that case as the lawyer for AEG after, I believe, he came in for another law firm or two. Kinsella Weitzman was in that law firm representing AEG for a period of time, then Mr. Putnam, and it's the same interests. And Mr. Trell denies all the these statements; and this gentleman, who has no interest in this case, testifies under oath what Mr. Trell told him. It's clearly reliable.

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Judge: Well, I think I understand why you want to use it; but the question is can you. Mr. Panish: Under 1192, I believe they had the same interest. Remember, they're both -- under Mr. Trell -- and Mr. Gongaware, I believe, testified about the insurance and how Michael -- remember they

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went through the contract, and Michael had an obligation to get the insurance, and they were both together, had the same interest to have the insurance? So now there's this claim over the insurance, they have no differing interests, they both had the idea to get the claim, to get the money from the insurance company, and under --

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Judge: I'm not sure that's the interest that they're talking about. They're talking about the interest in the cross-examining at the deposition. That's the interest at issue, not that their interests are somehow aligned pre-litigation. Mr. Panish: But Dr. Murray, if you remember the testimony that Mr. Trell -- of Mr. -- well, there were emails regarding if Dr. Murray was employed by AEG, that they could get that under the insurance policy. Judge: I understand. That's not the interest -- I think this is addressed to --

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Mr. Panish: No. That's -- follow with me. With Dr. Murray -- and you remember the questions in Mr. Trell's email to the broker if -- there had to be payments, and they asked can we get the payments covered under the policy. So if the claim is made against the policy, and the payments are covered under the policy, it would be the same interest of who's in the case as AEG to get the money from the policy. And if Dr. Murray was covered as his employment under the policy, their interests would be the same, and -- that specific issue that the questions were asked about.

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Mr. Boyle: I would also add really briefly, your honor, for the record, another argument is Mr. Taylor, at the time this conversation would have happened, was an agent of AEG He was their insurance agent, their insurance broker; so, also, we think it's a flat-out admission by an agent of the Defendant in this case.

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Ms. Stebbins: Briefly, your honor, Mr. Taylor is not an agent of AEG Live. He's their insurance broker. There are certain limited areas in which an insurance broker can act as an agent, but not in testifying in a deposition that a.E.G. Live knew nothing about. Certainly he was not authorized to appear or testify, so I think we can dispense with that one pretty easily. This is evidence code section 1292. I think Mr. Panish said 1192.

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(reading): Evidence of former testimony is not made inadmissible by the hearsay rule if the declarant is unavailable, offered in a civil action, and the issue is such that the party to the action or proceeding in which the former testimony was given had the right and opportunity to cross the declarant with an interest and motive similar to that which the party against whom the testimony is offered has at the hearing. That's this hearing. So the only way this comes in, your honor, is if someone at Mr. Taylor's deposition had an incentive and motive to cross-examine Mr. Taylor that is similar to what AEG Live has at this hearing. And that's simply not the case, your honor. As Plaintiffs note, AEG Live was initially sued in that insurance action. They were a Defendant. We served as their counsel in that matter and then were dismissed because basically the estate had the claim -- or the Michael Jackson company had the claim. So AEG Live has been out of that case for a very, very long time, was not present or part of this deposition. Had they been, it would have been relatively easy to cross-examine Mr. Taylor, show him a document that showed that any conversation he remembers was actually with Mr. Woolley and was two months later in may, not march. We would have had those materials at the ready and probably would have corrected it. Nobody was there with that motive and incentive, no one had that knowledge, and that's exactly why former testimony is not admitted in violation of the hearsay rule. I'm happy to go

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on on this, your honor; but I think your order is correct, I think there is no similar motive. I mean, just because there was a -- a motive to get insurance -Judge: Insurance together.

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Ms. Stebbins: -- or even a motive to have the policy paid. That's not a motive to cross-examine a witness about a conversation they had with AEG Live and the details of when it took place in the way that we would have in this proceeding. And I just think that's pretty self-evident, your honor. Judge: Okay. I'm denying the motion. Mr. Boyle: Thank you, your honor. Ms. Stebbins: Thank you, your honor. Judge: Okay. Do we have anything else? Ms. Stebbins: I don't think so, your honor.

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Judge: I think that's it.

The clerk: Monday? Yes.

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Mr. Putnam: Did you say 9:30 on Monday?

Judge: I know I'll end up thinking about something we should talk about when I'm driving home -- or my sister is driving home.

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Mr. Panish: That's nice. Judge: Anything else?

Ms. Stebbins: We're done with Young, done with Taylor, we're checking on Rwaramba, and Mrs. Jackson is going Monday.

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Mr. Panish: I'm sure we'll think of something when we're leaving. Ms. Stebbins: You don't have any other witnesses, right? There was a couple you gave notice of this week, Mr. Panish and Mr. Barrett.

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Judge: Are you filing an opposition paper to the motion to quash? Mr. Putnam: Yes.

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Judge: You are. Okay. It just hasn't been filed? Mr. Putnam: They talked to me. You're good. You knew there was something.

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Judge: I'm just trying to remember, keep it straight in my head. The other thing is that there were some minor edits to your stip and order.

Ms. Stebbins: We're going to put them in, send them to Mr. Boyle. I've already shown him, I don't think there's any issues.

Ms. Stebbins: I'll send you both.

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Mr. Boyle: I haven't seen it. Send me the scanned one, too.

Judge: Also your designations and counter designations. Okay. I think -- have a good weekend.

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(Court adjourned to Monday, July 22, 2013)